Purpose of Having Venemous Snakes?

[Gregg M]

Right...... Hey Ray, I have a bridge that goes from Brooklyn to Manhattan to sell....... Wanna buy it???? LOL......

[cobraman]

let me check my funds.........I'm a little short of cash because of the last hospital bill that was not another snakebite. Take a check?
Ray

[Bryce Masuk]

lol Ray "it didnt bite me I fell on it and my hand went in its mouth and you figure it outttttt...........

[Aaron_S]

Invictus,You say your friends can handle their large boids alone, now are these CBB animals or fresh WC animals? Let's see you're friends free handle a WC sulawesi retic. Come on it's not gonna kill you.

[Bryce Masuk]

Invictus you can Yell FACT all you want but it still means jack

What do you think is more dangerous in a situation a snake of 5lbs at the end of a hook.or a 200 pound snake forcing its way towards you as the hook you have does JACK? if you treat a hot the way it Should be treated you will be fine if you take the time to educate yourself and work with a hot keeper for a good amount of time. i cant say the same for the 2 guys with the af rock pushing towards them because a 200 pound afrock is about as strong as 4-6 people and the determination is beyond comperention

[BWSmith]

OK, I don't know what happened to this thread. I put in my 2 cents worth in the beginning and now we are in a hot vs. giant debate? My god, I just can't leave you crazy kids to play alone can I?

Well, I have already addressed the original issue, so i guess I can throw out my opinion on this (I know it is hard to drag an opinion out of me ) But first I want to address a little tidbit mentioned earlier.

Ok, we may not all be experienced hot keepers, but we're not morons either. This quote is just another classic example of hot keeper elitism.

This is something that I see often. The "Sacred Priesthood" of hot-keeping. I think that alot of it stems from the time and effort that most of have put into our endeavor. We don't just have to learn husbandry requirements. We have to know specifics about each species, what type of venom, how the venom works, protocol, handling, specific caging, strict room requirements, personal safety and public safety. Not to mention that we are persecuted and subject to more legislation to most herpers. I am in no way saying that we put more research or experience into keeping hots than someone who breeds Mandarin Ratsnakes for example. But many of us have taught ourselves a great deal about not only the items I mentioned, but a basic understanding of toxinology and antivenin (some more advanced training than others). So it seems that hot keepers (many) often must learn not only a great deal of information and keep up with research, but it touches on a wide spectrum of disciplines. Additionally, the hands-on experience offers more knowledge that can be contained in any book. A book cannot teach you how they move, strike, ride a hook or a thousand other specific behaviors. I am in no way condoning the elitism behavior. I have found MANY herpers that know more about boids or colubrids or venomous than I can ever hope to know. I simply wanted to address this so that non hot keepers may understand a bit. There are those that feel that they are above nonven keepers. I will not deny that. But that is not always the case. Often times (not referring to this thread), someone with no experience in hots will make a bold statement about handling or the like. This is like someone who has kept only lizards telling you how to work with an 18' retic when you have spent years working with them. One of the distinct disadvantages to an online community is that most of the time, everyone is just handle. Generally, you have little idea what experience the person yo are talking to has. I will never forget someone spewing out info on Black Mamba care, and he turned out to be a 14 year old kid. Many of the hot keepers that have been in this for a while (at least online) are jaded by the KS venomous forums. Thus most of it I would not lable at elitism, rather scepticism. This was not related to posts int his thread, but it is somethign that I felt needed clarification since the ven forum seems to be growing and is frequented by many nonven only keepers. You will ahve to forgive me if I did not explaine it as elequently as I could, but it is late and I had a back breaking day.

Because of that, I have exhausted my energy on that point rather than what I intended. I may revisit ven vs. giant tomorrow. But hopefully I offered a little enlightenment and food for thought.

[Zoe]

Very good points BW! I do understand why a hot keeper might consider himself above the rest, especially when a kid with a leopard gecko and a corn snake is telling him how to handle his snakes. But I do see a lot of "I've kept hot for years so don't try and tell me anything because I already know it" on the ven forum and I find it a bummer because they are closing themselves to interesting debate, even when it comes to not-ven-specific subjects.

As for hot / giant, I think the general consensus was that if two idiots are keeping hots and giants ,the hot keeper is at greater risk, but if two good keepers are keeping hots and giants, the giant keeper is at greater risk.

Zoe

[reptilesalonica]

Good points father (BWSmith) :thumbsup:
'
Zoe, hmmmm....you cannot say that a good keeper is at greater risk, because IF he is a good keeper he won't do mistakes by handling alone his giants....
You can say though that giants since they are so, when they decide something, can move faster and because they are bigger, they can reach the handler(s) easier and do what they want to do...
A giant can move ahead 3 meters in 1 sec, while a hot in 10 secs...plus the size of each...
Idiots with hots and idiots with giants, yes, here i agree that idiots can make more mistakes with hots.
But a good, experienced hot keeper, know his limits and the snakes' reaction and EVEN if the snake decides to attack, the snake cannot do much, since it's on the hook.
Good point that of BWSmith for those times that a hot rides the hook. Why won't we have a 2nd hook aside?
This way every danger is limited to zero.
~Greg~

[Zoe]

because IF he is a good keeper he won't do mistakes by handling alone his giants....

There is always a risk of danger. It's not like any one keeper can say "i am not at any risk and never will be". No, because there is always that chance that something might happen. Its unfortunate, but it's true.

A giant can move ahead 3 meters in 1 sec, while a hot in 10 secs plus the size of each

Is that a stat? If so where are you getting it from? I would like to see a 20 foot snake move 30 feet in one second.

Zoe

[Mustangrde1]

Well after cleaning up the coffee i spit all over the monitor after reading rays post and by the way I too have a bridge for sale.Debate is a great thing it is how you learn or possibly have your eyes opened to knew theories.As to eleiteism I will say it again show me an self proclaimed expert I will show you a fool.Herpetology is a constant evolving science where no one person is a expert.Just when you think you know it something changes.

[BWSmith]

yup, the day you think you know everything is the day to sell all your herps and start with fish They day you don't learn something new, is a wasted day.

[BurmBaroness]

Still don't see the comparison between giants and hots. They are nothing alike. Sure, there can be danger with each, and either COULD kill you. I do not handle my large burm alone, and haven't since she passed the 8ft mark. Why? Cause even tho she has never so much as hissed at us, the potential is there. I have lemon juice and a good sharp knife on hand whenever she is out, because if she does constrict me, There is the possibility for serious consequences. I do not think it is safe to handle a large boid alone for any reason, altho I know it's tempting when the cage needs to be cleaned, etc. I just wait for my boys to come home and work with her then. Also, there is the whole mindset. In the back of my mind, even tho I am in no way afraid of nor intimidated by her, I have to remember her potential. not to do so would be stupid and irresponsible. But I think the mindset would be different with a ven. You can't keep it in the back of your mind, it has to be right up front at all times, because it only takes a second, and you can't just unwrap a hot and say," boy, I sure hope that was a dry bite!" Irresponsible keepers of vens and boids have more risk of getting hurt or killed, but responsible ones do minimize their risks greatly.

[reptilesalonica]

Is that a stat? If so where are you getting it from? I would like to see a 20 foot snake move 30 feet in one second.

You should see it hu(a)ngry!
'

They day you don't learn something new, is a wasted day.

So very true! :thumbsup:
'
Here is an article i found on Melissa Kaplan's site

A Fatal Attack on a Teenage Boy by a Captive Burmese Python (Python molurus bivittatus) in Colorado

"The recent Colorado case of a human death caused by a Burmese python (Python molurus bivittatus; 20 July 1993) resulted in considerable sensational media coverage as well as widely varying estimates of the snake's length and weight. In the interest of scientific accuracy, we sought and received the cooperation of the Commerce City Police Department in acquiring detailed information regarding both the victim and the snake so that correct data could be placed on record.
"The victim was a 15-year-old male, 152 cm [5'] tall, weighing 43 kg [95lb]. While in bed, naked except for briefs, he was bitten on the right instep, with maxillary and palatine-pterygoid tooth marks clearly visible on the dorsal surface of the foot and dentary tooth marks clearly visible on the plantar surface. Numerous tooth impressions were present on the fingers of both hands, but only on their palmar surfaces, indicating that the hands had tried to pry open the snake's jaws from around the instep. The fingers and the foot bled profusely. Autopsy photographs revealed scleral ecchymotic hemorrhage, and venous congestion in the cerebrum (petechial and ecchymotic hemorrhage both present), all being signs of agonal breathing consistent with a diagnosis of suffocation as a cause of death. No attempt was made during autopsy to distinguish between suffocation and circulatory arrest (Hardy, 1993) as causes of death; however, in subsequent correspondence the pathologist hypothesized that circulatory arrest would more likely be the cause of death of smaller prey, whereas suffocation would be more likely with larger victims. Although blood was present on the victim's face, hands arms and legs, there was no blood present on the neck or on the middle of the torso, suggesting that the snake's coils had been wrapped around this area. Bruising of the victim's skin, consistent with this hypothesis, was visible in the photographs. There was no evidence that the snake had attempted to swallow any part of the victim.
"The snake was 336 cm [11'2"] total length, and weighed 24 kg [53lb]. Incidentally, almost all estimates of the snake's weight presented by the media were above 27 kg and ranged as high as 54 kg. The only accurate weight had been recorded by Officer Steven Paxton soon after the fatality, but few news writers quoted him, preferring to use the larger, exaggerated numbers. Circumference at the thickest part of the body was 38cm [15"]. The snake had not been fed for 10 days prior to taking the measurements reported here (19 September 1993) and the most recent meal had already been digested and passed. Thus, the digestive system was probably empty. We did not probe the snake's cloaca, but the short tail and diminutive pelvic spurs strongly suggest that it is a female. This animal had been raised since hatching by a close relative of the victim, and at the time of the attack the snake was not confined to a cage, but had freedom to move about the house. The victim was long familiar with the snake.
"...This raises the question of why the snake killed so large a victim. Although any answer that we can put forward would be conjectural, it is known that pythons and certain other constrictors will sometimes attack prey that cannot be ingested (Branch and Hacke, 1980; Fritts et al., 1990), whether through misinterpretation of size or through presence on the victim of chemical or other cues that are associated with normal prey.
"Perhaps the most significant point to emerge from this Colorado case is the fact that a 24kg python, modest in size by comparison with full grown specimens of this and several other species, was able to kill a healthy 43kg adolescent human. This will come as no surprise to experienced herpetologists, but it might be startling to people who have grown unjustifiably complacent with their now mature pythons that have been raised since hatching."
Through years of meeting people--especially teenage boys and young male adults--who want or have just bought Burmese and reticulated pythons, I have found that they really do not understand just how big their snakes will get, and even if they do, being "cool" tends to override common sense. Many men (and woefully ill-educated pet store owners and employees) recommend Burmese as "good starter snakes" instead of Ball pythons (P. regius) because of their docility and hearty appetite (failing to recognize that the initial nervousness and reticence to feed are traits common in wild-caught Ball pythons, not in captive bred ones).
I recently met two people who have a deep-seated fear of snakes, both due to encounters with large, loose pythons. The first is a woman whose infant niece was killed by the parent's python which had been kept in an insecure enclosure. The second is a young man who, while sleeping at a friend's house, was awakened by the friend's Burmese python which was in the process of wrapping itself around the young man. When he had gone to bed, the snake was on top of the refrigerator, its owner not wanting to "disturb" it by getting it down and putting it safely away.
What must be remembered is that, no matter how tame and friendly the snake, it is and always will be a wild animal, and as such, subject to what appears to the owner to be unpredictable behavior. No matter how many years one has had a snake, no matter how familiar the snake is with its owner-family, hunger, fear, unease and other factors can trigger instinctual behaviors. Good examples of this were published in the February 1994 issue of Reptiles (Pssst...wanna see my pet snake?and in the general press in 1996 (NY Teen Killed by Pet Burmese).
Another misconception about giant pythons (and giant iguanid and varanid lizards) is that when they get "too" big, they can just be given to zoos and wild animal parks. NOT! Zoos and wild animal parks have all the giant reptiles that they can handle. Zoos should not, even if they could afford to spare the resources, become a repository of cast-off pets.
The giant pythons are beautiful, awesome animals. There is something breathtaking about seeing a snake with a girth the size of a telephone pole, coiled up contentedly in its basking area. But there are some animals that are not suitable as common pets for some people due to the amount of space and other resources that must be committed to that animal for its entire life, one that may span two or three decades.

~Greg~

[BWSmith]

Mellissa Kaplan wants to see all herps banned. Just FYI.

[reptilesalonica]

I didn't knew that, but this is just an article.
~Greg~