Venomoids.........#@$%&*

[C_Ellenzweig]

Ok, but I pick the pole!

[TheRedDragon]

That's only fair since I may need a new back after this. *L*

[C_Ellenzweig]

Wow... this is the epitome of "off topic" LoL!

[chas*e]

I agree totally with the general anti-venomoid opinions expressed here. There is an issue of regeneration of the venom glands. The glands are surgically removed and the space filled with Silicon, if I am not mistaken, and this procedure has a tendency to fail after time. The big issue is that the venomoid keeper must regularly check with live feeders that there is not a regenerated venom load. Most venomoid keepers are not stupid enough to take a bite from a venomoid anyways, most fangs give a deep wound, Gaboon viper for instance; therefore they would always be on edge never knowing, "Is this the bite that proves the gland is back"... How tragic for the snake and the keeper.

[Dom]

Alright . .After reading 70 Posts in a row .. here is my though ..

First .. I have worked with venemous .. no venemoids.. but do not own any ..


Here is the only valid point I totally agree with to own a venemoid snake..

One .. A venemous keeper .. very highly though off has a venemoid used to train other keepers.. of course only he knows its a venemoid.. the new keeper does not .. now u gotta admit .. that is trully a good reason for owning one .. but not a good reason to butcher one lol ..

EXCEPT for that .. No other points is valid imo..

Just my small ramble

[MsTT]

Venomoid FAQ:

http://www.snakegetters.com/demo/vet/venomoid-faq.html

My objection to the procedure is on humane grounds. Oral surgery is very, very painful even when it is performed properly by a licensed veterinarian who uses postoperative pain relief medications. And most venomoid snakes on the market today were not operated on by veterinarians. The garage hackers don't use pain medication.

All anesthetic type drugs are illegal for unlicensed inviduals to use and possess, so the garage hackers skimp on this part and either use the minimum amount of drug they can easily obtain illegally, or they don't use any anesthesia at all. A very cold snake cannot move, but it can still feel every cut that is made.

Read the FAQ and article links for more information on why venomoids are a bad idea.

[Mustangrde1]

Putting emotions aside and looking at the subject from a pure statistic view 90% of the animals that go under this " UNEEDED" surgery by Unqualified person DIE. That comes out to 10 out of 100 survive hence the high cost for a venomoid.

Now lets look at the safety issue. If the surgery is not done perfectly the animals can again become venomous and fully capable of delivering a fatal bite. I know of one animal that had the surgery done and after a check just off a gut instinct had yellow fluid show on a towel " venom " though it was not conclusive after having numerous mice and rats bitten by the animal they all died in relatively quick order "venom". Now as this was a Papuan Black snake and not by any means a constrictor or viper with large fangs all I could say is "VENOMOUS."

Conceder that animal being sold as a VENOMOID and the person receiving it deciding to play with it and it bit him. He / She would have been dead. This is the biggest problem with venomoids that they can become after time lethal again and kill. Imagine if the buyer had a kid and the kid was bitten and died. Public outcry to ban reptiles would be beyond belief. It would not just be venomous but all reptiles. If you think that's not true your kidding yourself. So now this has put the entire hobby at risk. Care to loose your corns, balls, boas, monitors, geckos???

Many people purchase these animals so they can show off and handle a normally deadly animal. This is a foolish move for the above reason I have handled venomoids myself and always kept a very wary eye on them and no longer do it period for the same reason as well as my belief the surgery is wrong in that no animal should be subject to a surgery with such high mortality rate.

Another reason is that they feel that if they train with a venomoid they will be ready to handle the real thing. This is so far from the truth it makes me laugh when I hear it. First off I have never seen a venomoid after surgery act like a true venomous. Also you will always have it in the back of your head that it is not deadly so you wont show it the proper respect needed. If you do want to keep hots or are thinking about it write on a yellow sticky note every time a snake bites you "today I could have died" at the end of a year see how many times you would have died and then ask yourself if its worth it.

Many people think they also cannot find a true venomous handler to properly train them so they get the voids to learn. I can get the same training out of a cornsnake or coachwhip. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR A TRAINER WITH REAL VENOMOUS to teach you. Anyone that says they cant find someone is plain lazy and really isn't looking for one. This is a fact I lived in CA and kept native venomous from 1987 till 2000 when I moved to FL where I had to meet all of Florida's laws and regulations to get a permit for keeping them here which I did. It took me time to find a venomous teacher here but I did it so no one has an excuse in my eyes not to.

Then we have the people who buy one for the same reason they buy an expensive car or get a big constrictor and that is to SHOW OFF. Showing off gets you killed.

Now lets suppose you do get one anyway and it does bite you depending on species you may not be able to get antivenin in time to save your life. This is because you or the hospital does not carry the AV. needed or may not know where to get some from. Also hospital personal may not know how to treat such a bite. This occurs because a Venomoid keeper does not do near the research on the animal a venomous keeper would do. Nor do they research the proper AV. and where to locate it.

As to the surgery and standards of the surgery. Medications are regulated, but more to the point there are federal laws that require proper sterile surgical environments as well as a host of other requirements including full medical records on the animals. These subjects would take hours to go in to.

Bottom line is this is a heated emotional debate especially among venomous keepers. But everyone should feel that if any operation to any animal has such a high mortality rate it should be outlawed. These surgeries are performed at high cost of life to the animals involved and done purely for no other reason than selling the few that do survive at an extremely high price. If you think that is incorrect the wholesale cost for say a Monocle Cobra "Naja kaouthia" in Bulk is about $65.00 per animal. The resale price of a venomoid is $400.00 to $500.00 the cost of surgery through an unqualified person using substandard equipment and medications is roughly $50.00 so now the animal is worth $115.00 add in shipping of $65.00 and a box charge of $25.00 it all comes out to these people doing it ONLY AND SOULY FOR PROFITABLE GAINS. No care for the animals no regards for the animals safety or well being.

It is and always will be a subject of not just Morals but of Legalities! We Know laws are there for a reason and we as a community should make certain they are enforced. If we sit back and do nothing then we are as guilty as those performing the operation without proper qualifications or licensing. Furthermore anyone worried about having a law enforced that is clearly already on the books for fear it " { MIGHT} " somehow affect the rest of the hobby needs to exam the bigger picture of the potential for even greater damage to the hobby if it is not enforced.

In this case of venomoids WE KNOW FOR FACT that some of the surgeries have gone bad and the animal was fully capable of delivering a fatal bite!!!! Hot keepers know full well the risk we take anytime we have to interact with any of the animals in our care. We take that risk yes, but use every precaution possible is used to ensure our safety as well as the animals. Where a person who has a venomoid will take much greater risk up to and including free handling. That risk in unacceptable ever in my opinion. With venomoids becoming ever so readily available it is only a matter of time before more and more bites occur and some turn out to be hot. At that point is when more restrictive laws WILL be imposed.

Us Policing ourselves is a great idea. Are you willing to stop buying from ANYONE that sells or advertises for venomoids?

The only way other then legal pressure to stop these people is to hit them where it hurts the most and that's in the pocketbook.

For example if Reptiles Magazine was to offer for sale Venomoids even though they themselves do not allow it would you be willing to write them a letter and say you will no longer subscribe to their magazine. Or would you be willing to say no more ************** or FaunaClassifieds if they allowed selling of venomoids?

If enough people banded together and write letters and say we will not support your Magazine, Store , Website so long as you sell venomoids or allow the sales then I bet sales would be dramatically cut and or even stopped in time.

Problem is how many people have the balls to do it ?

http://www.venomousreptiles.org/arti...84794fadae28fd

The Link above shows a venomoid surgery being preformed. Now if we want to get in to what laws are required for performing a surgery what you just saw in that link is incredibly illegal. Based on sanitary conditions required. but its getting late and I better get to work. Might pick it up later though

[Gregg M]

I dont buy into that live feeder test........ Just like you said there are snakes with long fangs......... I am pretty sure 9 times out of ten a venomoid gaboon will kill a live mouse or rat........ This is based on where I see my bitis species hit the prey item.......... Yes I feed live sometimes......... I am cetain that the bite alone without the venom, sometimes actually kills a rat or mouse faster than the venom can......... How long would you live if someone jammed two half inch diameter PVC pipes in your chest........ My guess is, not very long........ I do not feel bite testing is an effective way to tell if a snake is hot or not......... The best thing to do is keep all the guess work out and leave the animal as it was intended to be......... HOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Crotalus75]

"If enough people banded together and write letters and say we will not support your Magazine, Store , Website so long as you sell venomoids or allow the sales then I bet sales would be dramatically cut and or even stopped in time."

This is the most important anti-venomoid action that can be taken. All of us who are disgusted by this practice MUST boycott any and ALL parties that are involved in or benefit from venomoids. Since it does not look like these laws will be enforced anytime soon this is the most effective tactic that we have.

[Crotalus75]

Does anyone have a comprehensive list of currently active venomoid dealers and "surgeons"? This would help. If so E-mail me directly instead of posting it because I don't want to give these criminals any advertisement.

[Mustangrde1]

Tad I do not have a list on the computer but just go look at and sites classifieds they are more and more full of these animals and their sellers.

[Mustangrde1]

Just a Thought but here is a link everyone might find interesting as to what is cruelty to animals. ALL 50 STATES.

http://www.law.utexas.edu/dawson/cruelty/cruelty.htm

Alabama
3-1-10. Wanton, malicious, etc., destruction, injury, etc., of animal or article or commodity of value of another -- Prohibited

Any person, who unlawfully, wantonly or maliciously kills, disables, disfigures, destroys or injures any animal or article or commodity of value which is the property of another must, on conviction, be fined not less than twice the value of the injury or damage to the owner of the property nor more than $1,000.00 and may also be imprisoned in the county jail, or sentenced to hard labor for the county for not more than six months, and so much of the fine as may be necessary to repair the injury or loss shall go to the party injured.

Florida
828.12. Cruelty to animals

(1) A person who unnecessarily overloads, overdrives, torments, deprives of necessary sustenance or shelter, or unnecessarily mutilates, or kills any animal, or causes the same to be done, or carries in or upon any vehicle, or otherwise, any animal in a cruel or inhumane manner, is guilty of a misdemeanor of the first degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $5,000, or both.

(2) A person who intentionally commits an act to any animal which results in the cruel death, or excessive or repeated infliction of unnecessary pain or suffering, or causes the same to be done, is guilty of a felony of the third degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or by a fine of not more than $10,000, or both.

(3) A veterinarian licensed to practice in the state shall be held harmless from either criminal or civil liability for any decisions made or services rendered under the provisions of this section. Such a veterinarian is, therefore, under this subsection, immune from a lawsuit for his or her part in an investigation of cruelty to animals.

(4) A person who intentionally trips, fells, ropes, or lassos the legs of a horse by any means for the purpose of entertainment or sport shall be guilty of a third degree felony, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084. As used in this subsection, "trip" means any act that consists of the use of any wire, pole, stick, rope, or other apparatus to cause a horse to fall or lose its balance, and "horse" means any animal of any registered breed of the genus Equus, or any recognized hybrid thereof. The provisions of this subsection shall not apply when tripping is used:
(a) To control a horse that is posing an immediate threat to other livestock or human beings;
(b) For the purpose of identifying ownership of the horse when its ownership is unknown; or
(c) For the purpose of administering veterinary care to the horse.

Georgia

(c) A person commits the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals when he or she knowingly and maliciously causes death or physical harm to an animal by rendering a part of such animal's body useless or by seriously disfiguring such animal. A person convicted of the offense of aggravated cruelty to animals shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed $15,000.00, or both, provided that any person who is convicted of a second or subsequent violation of this subsection shall be punished by imprisonment for not less than one nor more than five years, a fine not to exceed the amount provided by Code Section 17-10-8, or both.

Oregon
167.310. Definitions for ORS 167.310 to 167.350.
As used in ORS 167.310 to 167.350:

(1) "Animal" means any nonhuman mammal, bird, reptile, amphibian or fish.
167.320. Animal abuse in the first degree.
(1) A person commits the crime of animal abuse in the first degree if, except as otherwise authorized by law, the person intentionally, knowingly or recklessly:

(a) Causes serious physical injury to an animal; or

(b) Cruelly causes the death of an animal.

(2) Any practice of good animal husbandry is not a violation of this section.

(3) Animal abuse in the first degree is a Class A misdemeanor.

Washington state
16.52.205. Animal cruelty in the first degree
(1) A person is guilty of animal cruelty in the first degree when, except as authorized in law, he or she intentionally (a) inflicts substantial pain on, (b) causes physical injury to, or (c) kills an animal by a means causing undue suffering, or forces a minor to inflict unnecessary pain, injury, or death on an animal.

(2) Animal cruelty in the first degree is a class C felony.


These are just a few of the random laws. Now add in Federal Laws and Statues along with Veterianary laws and you get the picture we have laws but they are not being enforced. You really want to stop these people FORCE AND DEMAND that the laws be enforced. By the way Sellers having these animals made in to venomoids may want to look at their state laws. Some states actually could prosecute them for contributing.

[Crotalus75]

I have already made a list of all venomoid sellers on the KS classifieds. I only know of a couple of people who are actually doing most of these surgeries though. If anyone has more of those names I am definitely interested to hear them.

[Mustangrde1]

Tad look past the sellers. and look to the doers. It is them and the practice that needs to be stopped.Boycotts are great but it will take everyone writing letters, and at that I do not see some of the classifieds cutting the nose to spite the face. I do however see the states acting if they are given the DEMAND by the public to enforce the laws. Its frustrating to no end but some state agencies are starting to listen and actually start investigations but it will take many people actually getting off their lazy butts and actually E-mailing the states with Names and follow it up by the Law..

I.E.
To the State of { INSERT HERE} It has come to my attention that { INSERT HACKMASTERS NAME } Is Conducting Operations and or Alterations on animals without a Veterinary degree and as such is in violation of { INSERT LAW / Laws HERE} As this is a LAW in your state I as a voting member of the public DEMAND action for this Violation of your state law.

If the person is foolish enough to post on a web forum send the text with the letter. By demanding action and giving them the law in violation or specualted violation it forces them to act.
Send the letter to states DNR , USF&W , Local Humain Society and the states Veterinary board.

[Crotalus75]

Scott,

Thats the truth. The ones that are performing these illegal surgeries are the root of this problem. But, IMO venues like KS have a huge responsibility to monitor and stop the selling of illegal products through their service. But as you stated KS probably won't do the right thing. $$$