Is this man being responsible with these hot snakes?

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

First bold comment. How do you know this is actually legally binding? There are tons of lawsuits placed and won on a yearly basis that the 'idiots' win. A lot of facts proving you wrong that it will save him.

Second bold comment. Are you completely sure? Last time I checked very few States have any sort of restriction or licensing program in place. It's mostly done on the municipal and or county level and I doubt every single one in the Country has what you're claiming.

Third comment. This is a very bold statement to make. Considering a lot of the scientific community when dealing with those issues have very strict protocol on the animals they use for their programs. Do you know for a fact he participates in these with well known organizations or just says he does by keeping them?
I know one of his students extremely well so I'll be asking her.

I love when you give the Coles notes versions of these long posts.

[D Grade]

Originally Posted by kiiarah

As a relatively new member of the snake keeping crowd, and also a regular viewer of Al's videos, I can say that at least for me his videos never stike me as reckless or sensational. He is incredibly brave, I will give him that, but don't you have to be to work with deadly animals?

I can see the argument that his videos promote other's seeing HOT keeping as no big deal, but I would have to side with those arguing that he does have a disclaimer and is in no way responsible for other people being idiots. He also frequently disucsses the dangers involved and the measures he takes to prevent accidents. His film techniques are deceptive. With the exception of his Elvis videos he is almost always at least 2 feet if not farther from the tank with the camera fully zoomed in. Yes it looks like he is an inch from their face but that is not the case. He also frequently uses a chest harness for the camera, he is not holding the camera with one hand and tongs with the other, the camera is secured in place and not being held. Elvis is an exception because he knows him well enough to safely allow him more freedom, at least as safely as possible given the circumstances.

I just don't believe that the fact that one person doing something may inspire others to do something crazy should limit their options or freedom of expression. I believe that all states have restrictions and license requirements in place for keeping of HOTs as it is, it is not like some 12 year old is going to go buy a cobra because they watched a Youtube video. If a person wants to do something as stupid as going out and catching a wild venomous snake to keep for fun, I don't think a Al's videos will be the factor that pushes them over the edge. That kind of person is going to wind up in trouble with or without others' example. I have watched a ton of his videos and of course I think it would be remarkable to be in his shoes and get to work with the animals he keeps, but I am smart enough to know I am nowhere near in a position to do so and that path would require years and years of training and preparation and would still be a potentially fatal decision. All I he has ever inspired be to do is feel overjoyed that there are people like him doing what they are doing to promote acceptance of such a universally feared animal.

In many of Al's videos he discusses his behavior with his snakes and his reasoning behind it, all has seemed perfectly sound to me. He comments multiple times about how people give him a hard time about his speech patterns and the long pauses, and points out that it is due to most of his focus being on the deadly snakes in the room and not on the video, and also that if people are bothered by it they can stop watching because attention to the animals takes priority. He is not just oblivious to what is going on around him. He has also discussed how his calm demeanor does not mean that he doesn't take them seriously, he just knows that panic in an already risky situation will only make things worse. I have seen snakes strike inches from his fingers and he hardly flinches, not because he is ignorant of the risks but because flipping out over it would make a serious bite even more likely.

I will admit that some of his videos seem like he is taking major, possibly unnecessary, risks. However, I strongly believe that the education he is bringing to the public is absolutely valuable enough to overlook that. As others have pointed out, if he places himself in harms way that is nobody's problem but his own. The fact that he talks to and interacts with the snakes, Elvis in particular, as though they are the family dog does strike some as reckless, but I think it drives the point home that these are wonderful animals and his love for them rubs off on the viewers. If this is what it takes to help people see HOTs as amazing instead of evil I am all for it.

The original poster made a comment about him being "just a hobbyist". We are talking about a man who is maintaining a huge collection, a large percentage of which are sent to zoos and other educational facilities. He is assisting heavily in venom research, biological studies, and breeding to preserve populations that are threatened in the wild. I don't see it as relevant whether his primary career is snake-keeping or whether he has just chosen to puruse it as a "hobby" he is absolutely not just some guy keeping snakes for fun.

My thinking on it is, until I have as much experience as he does with his animals, I am really in no position to judge.

Good post and I agree with a majority of what you say. The hot laws from states vary greatly. In Florida (or at least Dade County), you are required 1000 hours of venomous training from a certified keeper before you can even legally hook a hot. In Arizona all you need is a hunting license, a max catch of 4 per individual species, and to keep your hands off the protected species (Banded Rock, Twin Spot, Western Massasauga, and Ridge Nose Rattle Snakes, Gila's, and one species of Garter). I guess I can be classified as one of the "stupid idiots" because I do go out and herp on the weekends to find snakes and I do interact with them. Two weekends ago we had one heck of a night where we found seven Crotalus Cerastes Cercobombus and one C. Scutulatus. We kept one Cerco and the Scutulatus over night to give them water, take pics, and admire them and then released them the next night the same place we found them. In no way did Al or any other hot keeper influence my decision to do that, simply my love and passion for these creatures and the excitement for finding them.

Now the night I finally find a C. Molossus, I cant guarantee Ill be letting that one go.

[kiiarah]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

First bold comment. How do you know this is actually legally binding? There are tons of lawsuits placed and won on a yearly basis that the 'idiots' win. A lot of facts proving you wrong that it will save him.

Second bold comment. Are you completely sure? Last time I checked very few States have any sort of restriction or licensing program in place. It's mostly done on the municipal and or county level and I doubt every single one in the Country has what you're claiming.

Third comment. This is a very bold statement to make. Considering a lot of the scientific community when dealing with those issues have very strict protocol on the animals they use for their programs. Do you know for a fact he participates in these with well known organizations or just says he does by keeping them?
I know one of his students extremely well so I'll be asking her.

In answer to your first counterpoint, perhaps I could have worded that better. What I meant to indicate is that he does at least make an attempt to let people know that the way he handles his HOTs, or keeping them at all for that matter, is not meant to be imitated based on what is seen in his videos. He points this out in the body of his videos frequently too and at least attempts to ensure that others know it is really no joking matter and not to be taken lightly. I wasn't attempting to argue that he is protected by his disclaimer, just that he makes the disclaimer clear to his viewers in order to at least attempt to prevent any idiotic things they may decide to try based on what they see.

As far as lawsuits go, there is always a chance a ridiculous lawsuit can be won and if he were sued that would be the risk he is taking in sharing his passion. I have no involvement in whether he puts himself at legal risk, that is his choice to make. Keeping large constrictors in the home puts one in a similar legal grey area, sure you have a right to keep them but if it gets out and hurts someone you can also be sued. That being said I rarely see this given as a reason an experienced keeper should not have or share the fact that they keep such an animal. What I do have a say in is my own actions, and whether or not I make a bad decision based on something I saw him do, as do all his viewers. The burden of responsibility lies with the audience in large part. Now as to whether he is depicting the HOT keeping community as irresponsible is another argument entirely, but what I meant to indicate above is that I do not feel that he can be blamed if someone takes the information he presents, disregards his warnings, and gets themselves an ER trip. This of course is just my opinion, but I don't feel that he is being negligent or encouraging others to follow his example at all.

As for state reglations I did find what appears to be a good (if up to date) resource that lists all states along with a designation as to whether venomous reptiles are banned, partially banned, require a license, or are not regulated at all. Summary of State Laws Relating to Private Possession of Exotic Animals I think I counted five states that have no state system in place, all others require at minimum a license or permit. The ones that are unregulated by the state default to county or city law which may still govern the keeping of any HOTS. I haven't done a ton of research into where they are legal and under what guidelines, as I don't plan to own one, but I have done some research on keeping them in general and it sounds like it isn't that easy to obtain one without having some sort of proof that you can legally keep them, or in unrestricted states that you are able to responsibly care for them. Most breeders and vendors understand the trouble they would be in for selling these species without asking the right questions of the potential buyer. I suppose anyone can bypass the laws and obtain one if they are determined, but I still would argue that it isn't something a person can easily run out and get on a whim. I agree with you though that it would be interesting to see some statistics on how many people have gotten into HOTs without the necessary experience and encountered problems. Maybe I just have a hard time believing it is something anyone would even attempt without knowing what they are doing.

Regarding the last statement you pointed out. I wanted to clarify that he doesn't produce antivenin himself. I have heard him refer in his videos to being in some way involved in certain research, but in what ways I cannot say as he didn't elaborate. He may just be close with some people in the industry and compare notes. As for many of his animals being in zoos and other facilities I am certain, as he has numerous videos where he discusses where the animals are going to be sent or films the bagging process before they are shipped out. Much of his collection exists outside of his home. I believe it was in the Viperkeeper 101 video that he address how many snakes he has and specifically mentions that many are located in other facilities. Now I certainly couldn't say that I have independently verified his claims, but I trust his claims. That being said, what most impresses me is his efforts in breeding and assisting in maintaining populations.

That you for the feedback by the way, from what I have seen you know your stuff and have always been very helpful when I have needed input. I am by no means an expert, would love to be one day but that would be a long time from now. I guess I just felt the need to chime in and point out some really wonderful things that he is bringing to his audience. I agree that people can be inspired to do stupid things, and that is a shame, but I would really hate to see people like him forced to stop sharing their knowlege and passion simply because a few people lacked enough common sense to make the right choices.

[kiiarah]

Originally Posted by D Grade

Good post and I agree with a majority of what you say. The hot laws from states vary greatly. In Florida (or at least Dade County), you are required 1000 hours of venomous training from a certified keeper before you can even legally hook a hot. In Arizona all you need is a hunting license, a max catch of 4 per individual species, and to keep your hands off the protected species (Banded Rock, Twin Spot, Western Massasauga, and Ridge Nose Rattle Snakes, Gila's, and one species of Garter). I guess I can be classified as one of the "stupid idiots" because I do go out and herp on the weekends to find snakes and I do interact with them. Two weekends ago we had one heck of a night where we found seven Crotalus Cerastes Cercobombus and one C. Scutulatus. We kept one Cerco and the Scutulatus over night to give them water, take pics, and admire them and then released them the next night the same place we found them. In no way did Al or any other hot keeper influence my decision to do that, simply my love and passion for these creatures and the excitement for finding them.

Now the night I finally find a C. Molossus, I cant guarantee Ill be letting that one go.

Thanks D, and I hope I didn't come across as argumentative as it certainly was not my intention, but it is just so frustrating that the responsible keepers get blamed for other idiots getting themselves hurt or killed. It would be like saying that if a friend of mine comes over, meets my ball python and falls in love with them, then rushes out to buy one and proceeds to put them in an unheated tank with a single hide, that I am at fault because I sparked their interest. I am convinced that the long present prejudice against snakes is a result of ignorance and myth. If the people who work closely with the most feared species have to hide their interactions with them from the world because the kid next door might go and get himself killed, how are we to change people's views?

What Al's videos show me is that these are misunderstood animals. Deadly, of course, but still misunderstood. They want the same things we want, and they have a defense that we must be unfalteringly respectful of, but they are far from evil or deserving of being massacred as many seem to believe. He never suggests that anyone should get a cobra and treat it like the family dog, but the fact that he is able to interact with his in the way he does is eye-opening. How could anyone hate an animal like Elvis, especially after watching how calm Al is around him? I think anyone with a shred of common sense realizes that he is able to do this because he has been caring for him for years and has learned to read him. That behavior would not fly with a wild specimen for an instant, but it does prove that they are not so mindless and blood-thirsty as people would like to think.

I love the point you made about having interacted with a HOT just recently, and that this was in no way Al's fault. I feel that I would do the same in your position, but it would be absolutely at my own risk and if I got bit I would place the blame on nobody but myself. What would motivate me to do so is the fact that I no longer see these animals as something to be feared, just as something to be understood and admired. Understanding them means knowing their capabilities as well as your own in terms of what you can safely accomplish.

[D Grade]

Great post bud, pretty much nailed every point on the head. And thanks for the kind words, I am very passionate about these animals as you are as well, whether hot or not. I will admit my interest is more on the hot side since most of our herping efforts are focused on finding local Crotalus species, but in the end we love them all the same (or should). Its refreshing seeing folks who have no interest in keeping hots actually seeing nothing wrong with Al's methods and making valid points.

[kiiarah]

I couldn't really say that I have no interest in HOT keeping. :P I guess you could say that I while I would absolutely love to be in Al's shoes, I am sensible enough to know it is not something you get into just because it would be "neat". More accurately, I would love to have the opportunities and experience he has. If I were to meet someone who could mentor me, and had the time, money and ability to safely pursue it I would be very very tempted. I have no interest in pursuing it without the proper education, no less with two young children in the house.

I also realize that there is a flip side to every coin. Watching Al's videos most of what you see is the fun, the quirky, and the exciting aspects of HOT keeping. It makes sense, this is what his viewers want to see. Nobody wants to see the electricity bills his collection produces, or the feeder or antivenin costs. Nobody wants to see the stress of trying to safely treat a potentially deadly animal when they are sick. Similarly, nobody sees the few times that he has had close calls, or the few bites he has gone through. I am sure it is not all fun and games. Just important to keep a healthy perspective about it I guess. Would I love to be up close and have the honor of caring for such amazing species, of course! At the same time though, keeping animals like that just for fun does seem irresponsible to me. As he says repeatedly, venomous snakes are not pets.

Now if I got the experience and got connected up with someone who could help me do it in a way that is somehow helping the species involved (say in a rescue type setting) that would be another matter entirely. For right now, I just have to convince my husband that we could one day work up to keeping a burm or retic and that is a task in itself. You should have seen how resistant he was to a ball python! "A snake in the house?! No way!" but I won in the end and now he loves him too.

I notice that you are in Tuscon, I am about four hours away from you in the Verde Valley area just to the other side of Phoenix. I haven't been fortunate enough to encounter any rattlers in our area, just one particularly tempermental gopher snake on the back porch a couple years ago who managed to instill in our cat an enduring mistrust of all things snake, lol. Do you find them often out in Tuscon?

[D Grade]

Yeah we have hit or miss nights. Most unfortunately have been miss but were still heading out every weekend to see what we can find. As far as rattlesnakes are concerned, we've found two Atrox on seperate weeks and two weekends ago we had one hell of a night finding seven sidewinders on one stretch of road and a gorgeous Scutulatus to top off the night. Since then weve only found a few Long Nose, a few Night snakes, and probably missed a Coral or Pyromelana on Friday as we drove past it and lost it in the grass.

We're looking at herping up at Superstition Mountains next weekend or the following so we'll be in your neck of the woods. Good to see fellow AZ'ers here on the forums.

[kiiarah]

That is so cool, I rarely see anything out here but then again I rarely go out walking so that may have a lot to do with it. I do see lots of king snakes and gopher snakes at work. I work at a resort, so between guests and employees, there are about 150 eyes out there at any given time. Of course, if anyone sees anything they alert the front desk so it works out great. I have sort of gained a reputation for being the go to for any needed snake wrangling. It is probably the best job perk.

Actually the first wild snake I ever picked up was one that a guest reported there. The engineering tech who took the call came back to the lobby and I overheard him complaining about how he was supposed to move this big gopher snake. He was making comments like "I don't like snakes" "What do they expect me to do" and "All I have is a rake", so without really thinking I told him I would help. He commented on how lame he was going to look going to find back up and coming back with a tiny (5'1'') 20 something year old female to help him lol. I knew I couldn't let him use a rake to try to move the snake, and I didn't have tools either, so I just resolved that I would have to pick it up and risk a bite.

The snake was not happy either, hissing like crazy and about 5-6 ft long. Even the guests were concerned and kept asking thing like "Won't it bite you?" To which I replied "I hope not, but we will find out". Turns out he didn't bite, and it was a really cool experience just approaching and handling something everyone else was terrified of and walking away with not so much as a scratch. It is what really drove home that people have misguided views of them as a species. I realized on the way to help him that I had never even picked up a wild snake by myself before, which made me pretty nervous, but I knew I couldn't just leave a person who admittedly is uncomfortable with them try to move him without injuring him, especially with just a rake! Now I have all the guys at work in the loop that if a snake is found they need to bring it to me. I come back from days off all the time and hear "Where were you, we found a snake yesterday".

[D Grade]

Wow, we need to come up to your neck of the woods. I have a Cali King and a Gopher at home but it never takes away the thrill of finding them in the wild. And good for you for having the courage to do that, that says alot about your knowledge and passion for snakes. I would be very impressed with a 20y/o girl wrangling a defensive gopher to save it from harm.

[kiiarah]

Aww thanks ^_^. Well at that point I wasn't even really thinking of what may happen to me. I just knew the guy who was called to move it well enough to know he wouldn't lose any sleep if it were harmed in the process. I guess I sort of felt like I had no choice.

Ever since then, I have no fear of picking up wild non-venomous. I mean what is the worst that could really happen even if they did bite, right? Actually, I am wondering lately if I may have too little of a response. The other day I walked outside and there was a little juvi king snake lying in a culvert basking and my first thought was "aww look how cute", took a good 15 seconds to register that it was an actual snake that I could visit with and not just something I was seeing on the fourms or on Youtube lol. Sure hope I would have more of a reaction if it were venomous, but somehow I think I may not.

I will say this though, once that gopher snake was safely relocated (I held him while the security tech drove the golf cart) I noticed that I was actually shaking. It sort of hit me at once after he was safe, like "oh my gosh, I really just did that". This was all before I got my little guy so I had no experience at all at the time lol. I work in the Sedona area so we have lots of wildlife out there. You should definitely come out this way some time. Temperatures have been perfect lately, bet you would find tons of cute critters out right around dusk.

[D Grade]

Yeah I always find myself with an adrenaline rush after finding something. We found an L.G. Pyromelana (AZ Mountain King) and the adrenaline was through the roof. First time finding one in the wild. The rush is part of the passion.

[LiL Zap]

When I saw the title of this thread, I immediately knew who you were talking about. The man is knowledgable about snakes no doubt about it but I don't agree with the unnecessary risks that he takes at times.