IBD maybe?? - Page 6

KORBIN5895 · 11-04-13, 03:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikBush97

Hi, everyone. Cupcake has an intense head wobble, star gazes very often (only when I hold her). Those are the only symptoms I see but it's scary... Will a vet be able to diagnose her if she does in fact have IBD?

How did you go from Stargazes often to seldom?

marvelfreak · 11-04-13, 07:00 AM

Wow where to begin. First off some snake mainly boas take longer to show signs of IBD. In my case the new snake BCI i had gotten was the carrier and the last to show signs(so i thought) and die. What i didn't realize was actually he had showed signs when i first got him but i dismissed it, because then he acted fine. When i first got him the second day actually he sat there for almost two hours star gazing. His head 2.5 feet straight up in the air swaying back and forth. So i called the pet store and asked if this was normal and was told not really. The guy said if it did it again i could bring it back and get my money. Never did it again until 9 of my other snakes had already died. A couple months go by then all hell breaks loose.

Funny thing about IBD it can lay dormant for some time especially in boas. Now Python it's another story. My first snake to show signs and die was a Ball Python (RIP Sid Vicious). Then another Ball and a Burmese. With my pythons it was bam one right after another in a month's time. The problem i had back then over 15 years ago was only one vet would look at snake around here. He didn't know much about snake diseases, but me and him both got educated by the end of it all. The big problem was by the time he figured out what it was it was to late. God i wish they would have had internet back then, but even then not much was known about it.

After all my Balls and Burmese died then my three Boas started showing signs. So i had the last couple put down. We are 99% sure it was the new boa i had gotten that had it because he was the only snake in my collection at the time that i hadn't had for over a year.

Even now the test are not 100% sure until the snakes died. So why chance it. I would put all your plans on hold for a few month. Do you really want to put all your money in to new high dollar snake just to chance them dieing and you losing all your money. What you need to do is figure out for sure what wrong with this snake first and foremost. Who knows what you saw could be a early warning sign or nothing but why take that risk?

On another note you said it only does it when you hold it. Could be a reaction to something you have come in contact with or are wearing. Plus a video would really help i just want to see if when it does it it looks anything like mine did when they started showing sign.

thinkbig317 · 11-04-13, 08:05 AM

Best of luck! Poor cupcake! ;(

ErikBush97 · 11-04-13, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

Wow where to begin. First off some snake mainly boas take longer to show signs of IBD. In my case the new snake BCI i had gotten was the carrier and the last to show signs(so i thought) and die. What i didn't realize was actually he had showed signs when i first got him but i dismissed it, because then he acted fine. When i first got him the second day actually he sat there for almost two hours star gazing. His head 2.5 feet straight up in the air swaying back and forth. So i called the pet store and asked if this was normal and was told not really. The guy said if it did it again i could bring it back and get my money. Never did it again until 9 of my other snakes had already died. A couple months go by then all hell breaks loose.

Funny thing about IBD it can lay dormant for some time especially in boas. Now Python it's another story. My first snake to show signs and die was a Ball Python (RIP Sid Vicious). Then another Ball and a Burmese. With my pythons it was bam one right after another in a month's time. The problem i had back then over 15 years ago was only one vet would look at snake around here. He didn't know much about snake iseases, but me and him both got educated by the end of it all. The big problem was by the time he figured out what it was it was to late. God i wish they would have had internet back then, but even then not much was known about it.

After all my Balls and Burmese died then my three Boas started showing signs. So i had the last couple put down. We are 99% sure it was the new boa i had gotten that had it because he was the only snake in my collection at the time that i hadn't had for over a year.

Even now the test are not 100% sure until the snakes died. So why chance it. I would put all your plans on hold for a few month. Do you really want to put all your money in to new high dollar snake just to chance them dieing and you losing all your money. What you need to do is figure out for sure what wrong with this snake first and foremost. Who knows what you saw could be a early warning sign or nothing but why take that risk?

On another note you said it only does it when you hold it. Could be a reaction to something you have come in contact with or are wearing. Plus a video would really help i just want to see if when it does it it looks anything like mine did when they started showing sign.

Do they put their heads directly straight up when they stargaze and how long do they usually do it? I'm going to take your advice and wait. I'm not taking in anymore snakes for a year. If all my snakes are alive and healthy in a year, I'll start my breeding plans back up.
Plus I'm 16... I have all the time in the world. Thanks for the advice guys

ErikBush97 · 11-04-13, 11:14 AM

So let's say I wait it out and it's not IBD. What would be the cause of this? Think it could just something genetic, like for spiders?

Will0W783 · 11-04-13, 02:17 PM

ErikBush97, I just read through this thread, and I want to say I'm sorry for the worry you are going through.

One big question that I noticed that no one was asking- is your snake eating? If she is eating, has she regurgitated (vomited) at all? Regurgitation and refusal to eat are some of the most common early signs of IBD in boas. In pythons the neurological stuff usually shows up first. Boas have a much slower time course of the disease and some can in fact be asymptomatic carriers and live long healthy lives even though they will infect the rest of a collection.

I don't think it's likely that it's IBD from what you are describing- IBD tends to be more pervasive and the snake will lose proper coordination and muscle control regardless of where it is- cage, being held, etc. However, the disease is progressive and can be tricky to catch in the early stages.

This is an incredibly good website resource Inclusion Body Disease

You can also go on YouTube and search for inclusion body disease or IBD, or BOID and you will turn up many videos. Pay attention to ones that say in the description that it was confirmed IBD, so you aren't watching something that turns out to not be IBD.

There are a number of other illnesses and conditions that can cause stargazing and head wobble. Certain genetic mutations, such as the spider gene in ball pythons, cause it. Some spider balls are so bad they twist and knot themselves up, wobble all over like palsied eldery, and have difficulties eating.
Other viruses, like West Nile, Paramyxovirus, and Ophidian virus can also cause neurological symptoms. These viruses are usually much faster onset and progress rapidly to death.
Certain vitamin deficiencies can cause neurological problems in snakes. In that case, the bloodwork should show it and a few vitamin shots can help.

Exposure to pesticides can also cause neurological problems. Usage of "No-Pest" strips as a treatment for mites has been known to cause stargazing and incoordination in snakes exposed to it at too high of a dose or if it gets into the water. If you've been using these strips, that might be the cause.

Best of luck- keep us posted. I would continue to keep this snake quarantined and, as others have mentioned, hold off on other purchases until you know what's going on with her.

I noticed a few other members commented on buying snakes too quickly. The concern there, which I'm not sure anyone explained, is that if one is acquiring snakes very quickly, that one will run out of proper quarantine space. Each new animal has to be quarantined not only from the established collection, but from other quarantined animals. So, if you buy Snake1 in April, put it in quarantine, then buy Snake2 in May, then Snake3 in July, etc, you will run out of places to quarantine them properly and there's likely to be some cross-exposure.

All new snakes should be quarantined for a minimum of 3 months; 6 months is ideal.

marvelfreak · 11-04-13, 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ErikBush97

Do they put their heads directly straight up when they stargaze and how long do they usually do it? I'm going to take your advice and wait. I'm not taking in anymore snakes for a year. If all my snakes are alive and healthy in a year, I'll start my breeding plans back up.
Plus I'm 16... I have all the time in the world. Thanks for the advice guys

Yes most of the time. A couple times they would have their head at a 30 degree angle. They would lean back and sway from side to side. With the Burmese for some reason they would twitch when doing it from time to time. Has for how long any were from a couple minutes to hours. Towards the end they couldn't even move enough to do anything.

ErikBush97 · 11-04-13, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marvelfreak

Yes most of the time. A couple times they would have their head at a 30 degree angle. They would lean back and sway from side to side. With the Burmese for some reason they would twitch when doing it from time to time. Has for how long any were from a couple minutes to hours. Towards the end they couldn't even move enough to do anything.

She basically looks up like this. And she does it for a few minutes

Terranaut · 11-05-13, 05:27 AM

So you think he may have IBD because....he sits on his coils?
Have you even looked at IBD boas on youtube to compare? Unfortunately there ate several videos of bias with IBD there.

marvelfreak · 11-05-13, 05:32 AM

Sound to me like all your snake was ever doing was check out it surroundings. like i said a video would have help us help you figure it out what your describing now don't even sound like Star Gazing.