Anyone here have experience with dwarf boa regurgitation??

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

This is actually the only animal I am having an issue with. And as mentioned earlier it came with the problems so it could still be lingering. You are deadset on the argument that it is about heating. I clearly negated that argument by telling you she has the proper temperatures and uses them. It's not the heating.

You talk as though there is something wrong with "picking little bits". Little bits add up.

Lingering? Bad husbandry to bad husbandry is obviously the only lingering factor in my opinion.

If that's NOT the issue as you say it is, go take it to the vet, get a test done for all pathogens and tell us the result. Why haven't you done this yet?

Picking little bits of an argument is wrong because you can't only use "little bits" to make a case.

I also don't care for your experience with 2 other snakes that my 4 year old nephew could keep alive. This animal isn't quite like that especially when you start out wrong.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I know all about cage furniture. I don't use anything from a pet store. I don't walk into them. If I need a hide I make one and it's very rare I have a snake who requires it.

Anyway, because YOU feel the plant is secure doesn't mean the snake does. The difference here is that you continue to view everything from your point of view and what you want to believe or see. Not the snake's.

Put it this way. Would you with a full belly, which makes you vulnerable to predators and on the island birds are predators, climb a tree and hide in some leaves? Where for the most part there's open spaces and leaves can be pushed aside to get at. The option is some sort of burrow or under a rock where the sides are solid ground or rock and probably only one entrance that has some nice teeth protecting it. Oh, and the snake can bask on top of the burrow before retreating into it to digest in security.

I'd definitely pick the second one and so would your snake.

The irony. Now you are talking from your point of view.

If a snake feels insecure, it will hide. It wouldn't just stay out basking. It's a 12x12 enclosure for christ's sake, with black paper covering the three sides. It's a secure set up.

The fact is, all bushes and leaves are different. Some more open and closed than others. The one I have provided for her is enough to cover her whole body.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Lingering? Bad husbandry to bad husbandry is obviously the only lingering factor in my opinion.

If that's NOT the issue as you say it is, go take it to the vet, get a test done for all pathogens and tell us the result. Why haven't you done this yet?

Picking little bits of an argument is wrong because you can't only use "little bits" to make a case.

I also don't care for your experience with 2 other snakes that my 4 year old nephew could keep alive. This animal isn't quite like that especially when you start out wrong.

Make that 3 with past experience as well. Picking little bits of an argument may just be wrong, but you have not told me which little bits I have used, and how they were used in the wrong way. You just put that statement out there without ever backing it up.

EDIT: could you tell me how I commit bad husbandry to my snake? It has everything it needs. Hides, water, thermal gradient. Small enough enclosure to feel secure along with the hides. You call this bad husbandry?

The funny thing is you never.... once... have addressed my point about the temperatures being correct. you keep saying "it isn't warm enough". I have repeated myself several times now. The temperatures are all correct and the snake uses them to thermoregulate herself. Please refute this once and for all. You keep avoiding this point and try to win the argument by bashing me by saying things like " Bad husbandy ","You don't know much"," my 4 year old can do that". These are all ad-hominem attacks meant to attack the person instead of the argument at hand.

[marvelfreak]

This thread reminds me of







NOT!

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Make that 3 with past experience as well. Picking little bits of an argument may just be wrong, but you have not told me which little bits I have used, and how they were used in the wrong way. You just put that statement out there without ever backing it up.

EDIT: could you tell me how I commit bad husbandry to my snake? It has everything it needs. Hides, water, thermal gradient. Small enough enclosure to feel secure along with the hides. You call this bad husbandry?

The funny thing is you never.... once... have addressed my point about the temperatures being correct. you keep saying "it isn't warm enough". I have repeated myself several times now. The temperatures are all correct and the snake uses them to thermoregulate herself. Please refute this once and for all. You keep avoiding this point and try to win the argument by bashing me by saying things like " Bad husbandy ","You don't know much"," my 4 year old can do that". These are all ad-hominem attacks meant to attack the person instead of the argument at hand.

I brought up certain "attacks" as you call them as a refute to you and your reasoning for why you decided not to listen. You say this is your only snake with an issue, I say that's because the other two are so simple my young nephew can do it too so it isn't something for you to stand on.

I have attacked your argument. You seem to not refute it because you can't. You have a snake with a problem, I do not. Ergo, my information isn't as bad as you may think it is.


About your temperatures here is the post with your high temps. You're off by an easy 2 degrees steady. You should keep it 89 - 90 and not above.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/842931-post3.html

I never said it was the temps, I said the heating isn't working right. Which if you read that correctly could mean that your snake isn't achieving the proper temps. Despite what you're 6 thermometers read. It's your snake's temp, not the cage temp that truly matters. This is proved by the fact she regurged her meal two days later.

As well, your snake has shown that your enclosure isn't secure. If it was there would be no regurged rat in there. YOU say it is, but I doubt your snake is fully there yet. It took a meal so for the record it's partially secure.

The LAST thing, and I've presumed it thus far, is that you don't handle this snake like at all yet. If you do, that's a clear indicator of such behaviour as a regurge as it's STRESS. Stress isn't only from an insecure hide.

Like I said though, leaves aren't the same as a real tough solid piece to hide in. You can say it is, but trust me. Would you feel comfortable hiding yourself in leaves from a lion or would you feel more comfortable in something sturdy and covered on all sides? That's how your snake feels. I hope that's something you can understand since snake behaviour isn't quite your cup of tea yet.

EDIT: As it stands I'm awaiting an e-mail from the breeders in the States who first produced these animals when they were imported.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I brought up certain "attacks" as you call them as a refute to you and your reasoning for why you decided not to listen. You say this is your only snake with an issue, I say that's because the other two are so simple my young nephew can do it too so it isn't something for you to stand on.

I have attacked your argument. You seem to not refute it because you can't. You have a snake with a problem, I do not. Ergo, my information isn't as bad as you may think it is.


About your temperatures here is the post with your high temps. You're off by an easy 2 degrees steady. You should keep it 89 - 90 and not above.

I never said it was the temps, I said the heating isn't working right. Which if you read that correctly could mean that your snake isn't achieving the proper temps. Despite what you're 6 thermometers read. It's your snake's temp, not the cage temp that truly matters. This is proved by the fact she regurged her meal two days later.

As well, your snake has shown that your enclosure isn't secure. If it was there would be no regurged rat in there. YOU say it is, but I doubt your snake is fully there yet. It took a meal so for the record it's partially secure.

The LAST thing, and I've presumed it thus far, is that you don't handle this snake like at all yet. If you do, that's a clear indicator of such behaviour as a regurge as it's STRESS. Stress isn't only from an insecure hide.

Like I said though, leaves aren't the same as a real tough solid piece to hide in. You can say it is, but trust me. Would you feel comfortable hiding yourself in leaves from a lion or would you feel more comfortable in something sturdy and covered on all sides? That's how your snake feels. I hope that's something you can understand since snake behaviour isn't quite your cup of tea yet.

Well there you go. A more sensible argument. An easy 2 degrees isn't going to hurt either way. In the wild there are fluctuations all the time, and degrees can get hotter than 90F. If there is a hotter than 90f spot in the cage, she can move elsewhere. This is infact, text-book thermoregulation. Also, because there used to be an actual level to the top( as in another floor space) my snake would be able to move to a 90F degree spot if 92 was too hot or 88 was too cold.

You said my heating wasn't working right, yet you say that has nothing to do with temps. I don't know how many times I can say this but I will respectfully address as much of the issues that you bring forward as I can. The temps were there, and the snake utilized them. I would call that in your own words "heating working right".

I only handled her two times. First time I handled her was the day she came. I took her out of the deli cup, checked her out for minute to see if anything was wrong. The only thing I could tell was that she was very skinny.

Second time was a day before I fed her. I was hooking up a stick on thermometer to the wall but she was blocking the way so I picked her up and moved her. Would only those two times be enough to stress her out?(serious question, in case you feel this is an attack against you.)

[lady_bug87]

This argument is seriously ridiculous.

To the OP: arguing with Aaron is NOT fixing your problem.

Let me give you one more example:

You're at my house and I feed you a great big meal. Thoroughly satisfied, we sit in my living room on the sofa talking. The house is 75°

Now.

You're at my house a second time and after the same large meal I sit you in an office chair and spin it then I fling you over the balcony of my deck belly down. The temperature is 75° and I will wager you will either throw up or be close to it.

Digestion takes the right conditions for both temperature and over all comfort. Thats all I'm saying

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Like I said though, leaves aren't the same as a real tough solid piece to hide in. You can say it is, but trust me. Would you feel comfortable hiding yourself in leaves from a lion or would you feel more comfortable in something sturdy and covered on all sides? That's how your snake feels. I hope that's something you can understand since snake behaviour isn't quite your cup of tea yet.

EDIT: As it stands I'm awaiting an e-mail from the breeders in the States who first produced these animals when they were imported.

Human security is different from snake security would you not agree?
The thing is, you make these boas out to be always hiding. They aren't ball pythons that are in burrows most of the time. As cited earlier these snakes do go up the trees in the wild to avoid predators. Where do you think they hide in the trees? In some rock in the tree? No probably in between brush and patches of leaves that are on the branches. At same time, soaking up the sun's heat. I have mimicked a similar environment in the previous enclosure.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

This argument is seriously ridiculous.

To the OP: arguing with Aaron is NOT fixing your problem.

Let me give you one more example:

You're at my house and I feed you a great big meal. Thoroughly satisfied, we sit in my living room on the sofa talking. The house is 75°

Now.

You're at my house a second time and after the same large meal I sit you in an office chair and spin it then I fling you over the balcony of my deck belly down. The temperature is 75° and I will wager you will either throw up or be close to it.

Digestion takes the right conditions for both temperature and over all comfort. Thats all I'm saying

Arguing is good. It settles things.

Nice analogy. However you forgot we are warm blooded =].

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Well there you go. A more sensible argument. An easy 2 degrees isn't going to hurt either way. In the wild there are fluctuations all the time, and degrees can get hotter than 90F. If there is a hotter than 90f spot in the cage, she can move elsewhere. This is infact, text-book thermoregulation. Also, because there used to be an actual level to the top( as in another floor space) my snake would be able to move to a 90F degree spot if 92 was too hot or 88 was too cold.

Since when are we in the wild? We are not. From experience, and trust me it's a lot, a couple degrees can do wonders for these temperature sensitive animals.

She can't really move elsewhere because the only way to move is down. Where the heat is going. It's not a big enclosure by any means and the heat is going down..it's going to affect the entire thing, no matter what.

You said my heating wasn't working right, yet you say that has nothing to do with temps. I don't know how many times I can say this but I will respectfully address as much of the issues that you bring forward as I can. The temps were there, and the snake utilized them. I would call that in your own words "heating working right".

Something isn't working right. Heating is the number one cause of regurges. We'll agree to disagree because neither one is moving on this subject and I am not taking a trip to the States to prove myself right.

When is your vet appointment? You never did reply to that question since you believe everything to be in working order otherwise.

Would only those two times be enough to stress her out?(serious question, in case you feel this is an attack against you.)

No.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Since when are we in the wild? We are not. From experience, and trust me it's a lot, a couple degrees can do wonders for these temperature sensitive animals.

She can't really move elsewhere because the only way to move is down. Where the heat is going. It's not a big enclosure by any means and the heat is going down..it's going to affect the entire thing, no matter what.



Something isn't working right. Heating is the number one cause of regurges. We'll agree to disagree because neither one is moving on this subject and I am not taking a trip to the States to prove myself right.

When is your vet appointment? You never did reply to that question since you believe everything to be in working order otherwise.



No.

Again you are making assumptions that are too large for your current knowledge of my previous setup. The only way to go is not down. There are four general areas of a thermal gradient in that enclosure. To the top most back side is going to the hottest. Around 90-92F. Around the top most front side near the 2 hinged doors will be around 88F. At the bottom most back side it will be around 80-85 and the bottom most front it will be a few degrees cooler. Not to mention the different logs and such she can go on that are around the middle of the enclosure. It is a proper thermal gradient.

As for the vet, I will get her checked out soon. I wonder why you are so curious.

EDIT: when are we in the wild? We aren't. But wild specimens do experience these fluctuations and survive by going up in the trees. Important thing to note - They go up in the trees and that is how they survive. It is in their nature. Please take note of this point.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Human security is different from snake security would you not agree?
The thing is, you make these boas out to be always hiding. They aren't ball pythons that are in burrows most of the time. As cited earlier these snakes do go up the trees in the wild to avoid predators. Where do you think they hide in the trees? In some rock in the tree? No probably in between brush and patches of leaves that are on the branches. At same time, soaking up the sun's heat. I have mimicked a similar environment in the previous enclosure.

Hiding from predators in a tree and hiding from predators in a tree while on a full belly are quite different.

The material cited states it's to get away from crabs at low tide. Note, no food in the belly for the most part.

Small snakes hide a lot. They aren't near the top of a food chain so I don't think they'd be out and about all the time.

I used an analogy of human security in a way that a snake must feel secure. You should be able to understand it.

You mimicked an environment you thought to be correct. Your snake proved you wrong. Again, it's semi arboreal. If you would like here's a "wild" analogy. That snake has 1 acre of land to travel across with 1 tree on it. How much time do you expect it to be in the 1 tree as opposed to everything else?

In your home you've gone with the 1 tree as your answer. Your snake has proven you wrong, it's upto you to figure out what part is wrong. I've done my best.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

Hiding from predators in a tree and hiding from predators in a tree while on a full belly are quite different.

The material cited states it's to get away from crabs at low tide. Note, no food in the belly for the most part.

Small snakes hide a lot. They aren't near the top of a food chain so I don't think they'd be out and about all the time.

I used an analogy of human security in a way that a snake must feel secure. You should be able to understand it.

You mimicked an environment you thought to be correct. Your snake proved you wrong. Again, it's semi arboreal. If you would like here's a "wild" analogy. That snake has 1 acre of land to travel across with 1 tree on it. How much time do you expect it to be in the 1 tree as opposed to everything else?

In your home you've gone with the 1 tree as your answer. Your snake has proven you wrong, it's upto you to figure out what part is wrong. I've done my best.

Actually, in an earlier part of this thread I did say that the snake may not be getting warm enough because it doesn't go up to bask on a full stomach. Lady bug made that point and I agreed on it to be a possibility, which is why I took your advice along with others and gave it an actual terrestrial type setup.

All I am arguing is that I provided a proper thermal gradient. <-- Is that what you want to argue about still?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Again you are making assumptions that are too large for your current knowledge of my previous setup. The only way to go is not down. There are four general areas of a thermal gradient in that enclosure. To the top most back side is going to the hottest. Around 90-92F. Around the top most front side near the 2 hinged doors will be around 88F. At the bottom most back side it will be around 80-85 and the bottom most front it will be a few degrees cooler. Not to mention the different logs and such she can go on that are around the middle of the enclosure. It is a proper thermal gradient.

As for the vet, I will get her checked out soon. I wonder why you are so curious.

I can only make presumptions of your enclosure based on the information given. That's just baiting for you to say that since you're the only one who can give it.

I see only one thermometer in your pics from the first page. It's a 12x12. Something is obviously wrong and you're just saying "this is what it is so I'm not wrong" but yet your snake has proven otherwise.

I am so curious about this vet because you say everything is in working order so it MUST be a "lingering" affect from the breeder.It isn't heating/cooling, it isn't stress from handling, it isn't stress from insecurity. Which means it has to be something wrong with the snake. That seems to be your point, no? If that's true then you'd be taking it to a vet to get it properly examined for everything.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Actually, in an earlier part of this thread I did say that the snake may not be getting warm enough because it doesn't go up to bask on a full stomach. Lady bug made that point and I agreed on it to be a possibility, which is why I took your advice along with others and gave it an actual terrestrial type setup.

All I am arguing is that I provided a proper thermal gradient. <-- Is that what you want to argue about still?

It's obviously not proper if she can't uh use it to digest a meal.

If a snake can't thermoregulate while on a full body then it isn't proper! You've been wrong this entire time. She wasn't getting the right amount of heat when she needed it.

Whoa! Shocker. The snake also used the ground to hide instead of the fake plants? Whoa....shocker there too.