memory

[Kaetlinv]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Try this experiment (In jest, don't do it)

Place your snake, regardless of species on the ground during a nice warm sunny day, turn your back for a few moments.

Now when you turn around, did your "buddy" stay put? did he even look back at you as he slithered away?

The snake would escape, because that's what instinct would tell it to do.

People keep mentioning snakes' ability for affection... I think the only affection snakes have is for each other - and from what I've read here on the forum that's only a few species that cannot be housed alone.

Snakes tolerate us - however they're more willing to tolerate something that hasn't hurt it. If you've treated your snake fair and healthy and shown it that if it tolerates you it stays warm, humid, and full - then likely it isn't going to maliciously strike at something that keeps it in prime condition unless something changes to cause that snake to now fear what once kept it safe.

I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe snakes have BASE memory, purely for their own survival and reproduction. They're not like cats or dogs where you can scold them for doing something wrong and eventually they'll learn, or teach them tricks. That much is obvious, as the snakes in most cases would rather be left alone. The snake will tolerate the handling because it gets to really stretch out and roam outside of it's enclosure....i know my BP's prefer to be out of their tank not because they enjoy being handled, but because they get to experience new textures, sights, smells and discover the world. I love my BP, she does not love me.

i'm somewhat in the middle of this whole idea... Like I've stated- I believe they have base memory purely for survival. Adaptation in an animal that has mutated or deviated from the 'normal'. In the wild, if the 'natural' mutation is beneficial it will attempt to survive, and if it does it might become a normal event in the species rather than a mutation. Memory is an adaptation - if humans had no memory and the ability for intelligence we wouldn't be the top species on the planet...Likewise, something without memory wouldn't remember that ____ is bad for them or ____ is good for them and they might eventually perish.

Take all this with a grain of salt please... Like my last post. not trying to argue. The discussion is making me ponder the concept is all.

[marvelfreak]

Originally Posted by Kaetlinv

I think what I'm trying to say is that I believe snakes have BASE memory, purely for their own survival and reproduction.

I so agree.

[jaleely]

oh goodness.
Yes, i look at wiki. Then i take the time to follow that lead and look more. Many, many times the infrmation was correct, or it helped lead me to something that was more in depth.
I don't take anything on the internet as 100% fact. I also own a lot of books, and I have even called breeders and vets to help me sometimes.
I'm just saying, jeez. Everyone's acting all high and mighty.

Animals learn. I'm using personal experience with reptiles, amphibians, mamals, fish, etc. to support this theory. Yes theory until i work for a government program and get it published as fact and all that and start my own website considered as a reliable source *rolls eyes*

Your snake doesn't care about you, no. But your snake can learn and retain memories that trigger instincts.

You can't tell me people who own savs and other things don't think their reptile can learn.
it's not learning to love, no, but it knows fear, and it knows when it's safe. It knows repetition and what to expect when things happen. Same with snakes.

Let me ask everyone this...do snakes exhibit curiosity?

[MrBD1980]

Ok....

OP: I agree with most others that snakes do in fact have memory...when considering a response to the question i defined memory as 'persistant modification of behavior resulting from an animal's experience' which I must say seems to marry with almost all discussions throughout the forum from the 'my retic will strike at the glass if he sees the feed plate even when there is no food' through to the 'how to hook train a snake'...

Jay: where is the evidence which irrefutably proves the lack of memory capacity?

I understand my supporting considerations may be seen as anecdotal however I feel they are solid enough for an opinion base. I am however, as we all should be, open to considering any info for a counterposition.....

Brian

[jarich]

I, too, would like to know where the evidence is that snakes cannot possibly have memory, Jay and Snakeman? Because I think that neither of you have any at all. Simply because you think it, doesnt make it fact. I agree Wikipedia isnt anywhere to get proof of anything, but where are your sources?

Snakes, and by snakes I mean many species, have behavioural plasticity. What that means is that they are able to learn based on experience. Instinct does not explain that, however memory does. Snakes studied in the wild have spatial recognition, hunting patterns, and mate orientation. These are all signs of learning and memory. This is also seen in both small snakes like garters, as well as large snakes like pythons. So where is your conclusive proof that snakes cant possibly have memory?

Now this isnt to say that I agree with those stating that their snakes feel any kind of emotional attachments or feelings. I think thats a pretty good example of anthropomorphizing our pets.

[snake man12]

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

[Ivalynfyre]

A larger brain doesn't necessarily mean higher intelligence.. if it did, wouldn't elephants and blue whales and such be more intelligent than humans?

[jarich]

Originally Posted by snake man12

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

Mostly because you're wrong. But let's say it's because you havent given any evidence for your claims. You just keep repeating that it's not possible. That doesn't make it true.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by snake man12

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

They're lacking the brain capacity, my reptiles seem smart compartment to most involved in this thread.

[Kaetlinv]

Originally Posted by snake man12

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

because not all memory is rational, and in the case of snakes I don't believe they are rational. They learn once and that's what they know and that's what they stick to unless something happens that nullifies that now instinctual fear.

Take my ball python valentine.... she's only ever struck at me once, and never bit me. I handle her frequently and she's very mild tempered because of it. If one day I were to accidentally hurt her she would be very afraid of me and likely never stop being afraid of me / being hostile to me. Like the previously example given with the baby reticulated python that Marvelfreak had.

[snake man12]

Originally Posted by Ivalynfyre

A larger brain doesn't necessarily mean higher intelligence.. if it did, wouldn't elephants and blue whales and such be more intelligent than humans?

Hah I did not say brain size I said brain capacity there's a big difference there. No memory get it through your heads!!

[snake man12]

Originally Posted by Kaetlinv

because not all memory is rational, and in the case of snakes I don't believe they are rational. They learn once and that's what they know and that's what they stick to unless something happens that nullifies that now instinctual fear.

Take my ball python valentine.... she's only ever struck at me once, and never bit me. I handle her frequently and she's very mild tempered because of it. If one day I were to accidentally hurt her she would be very afraid of me and likely never stop being afraid of me / being hostile to me. Like the previously example given with the baby reticulated python that Marvelfreak had.

The fact of whether or not the so called memory is rational or not does not matter in this discussion.

[Kaetlinv]

Originally Posted by snake man12

First of all snakes don't have the brain capacity to be able to have the cognitive ability of rational memory and thinking. Why can't you people understand that??

Originally Posted by snake man12

The fact of whether or not the so called memory is rational or not does not matter in this discussion.

um... then why did you say they don't have the capacity for it if it's not important? You're the one saying they have absolutely no memory, then claimed they don't have the capacity for cognitive / rational memory or thinking and then say it doesn't matter in the discussion?

Honestly i'm just confused. Why use it in an argument if you don't consider it relevant?

[snake man12]

If you think they have memory it would not matter if it was rational or not.
This a one sided argument and I am the one side.

[Kaetlinv]

Actually, as I've said before, I believe they have base memory, the minimum amount needed to survive and breed.

It isn't a one sided argument. I believe there are many sides and many of those have been addressed and you're being stubborn and think what you know is correct.

Have you tried proving your belief? I haven't - that's why I'm only sharing speculations, not proclaiming my information to be the only correct information and no one else can have any speck of truth.

Have you gone to the lengths to disprove any amount of intelligence in serpents?

Have you gone through the effort of testing several hundred snakes to prove that a species or a group of species has / doesn't have intelligence?

Have you taken the time to raise a snake several dozen ways and see how each responds to a situation differently based on how and where it was raised?

How do you know that your assumptions are correct with no apparent first-hand source of information?