Boas are in the ban crosshairs

[Skumbo]

Originally Posted by red ink

So this version of the "ban" isn't going to take your snakes away, you just won't be able to move them from state lines. Wasn't that the same clause as the previous proposed "ban"?

Does the "ban" abolish the breeding of these snakes within a state?
Will it make breeding these snakes illegal?

No. but it will make selling them across state borders illegal, as well as shipping across borders illegal, which cuts off a ton of customers for a ton of people. This also means any expo you go to has to be from people within your state with these snakes, nobody will be bringing any of these cross border for expos because that's illegal as well.

Honestly, from a pet owners perspective, and not a breeders perspective (though this may hamper my dreams to one day breed BRB's if they keep adding snakes) its not that bad. nobody is going to check all your luggage when you move, and you can easily claim, in the extremely rare chance someone wanted to "get you" for importing a snake into a state, that you purchased the snake within the state, as it isn't even close to illegal to breed any of these snakes, you just cant bring them to other states.

this is actually the same "ban" proposed before, just with more snakes on it (it originally had all these, it was moved down to 3 (i believe, maybe 4?) and that was a "victory" then it was brought back at this on short notice with the full original "9")

[red ink]

Originally Posted by Skumbo

No. but it will make selling them across state borders illegal, as well as shipping across borders illegal, which cuts off a ton of customers for a ton of people. This also means any expo you go to has to be from people within your state with these snakes, nobody will be bringing any of these cross border for expos because that's illegal as well.

Honestly, from a pet owners perspective, and not a breeders perspective (though this may hamper my dreams to one day breed BRB's if they keep adding snakes) its not that bad. nobody is going to check all your luggage when you move, and you can easily claim, in the extremely rare chance someone wanted to "get you" for importing a snake into a state, that you purchased the snake within the state, as it isn't even close to illegal to breed any of these snakes, you just cant bring them to other states.

this is actually the same "ban" proposed before, just with more snakes on it (it originally had all these, it was moved down to 3 (i believe, maybe 4?) and that was a "victory" then it was brought back at this on short notice with the full original "9")

If that was the case then....

Mate I would say that this "ban" is a non-event. All it's restricting is movement of animals not making the animals themselves "illegal".

1) You can still breed/sell in your state (maybe a chance to create a niche market for the hobby breeder)

2) Levels the playing field for the breeders out there...

3) You can't police what crosses state borders, you can just say you bought it there (as you said)

4) It's not enforceable (this from a licensing experience where I am) as there not even a regulatory body that will be monitoring this. There's no proposed census of your animals, so how would they no what you have and don't have or where the heck you bought it from.

5) No animal is "illegal" so realistically no biggie... I really don't see the state governments monitoring their borders that closely looking for "snakes". Or them knocking at your door saying "hey wait a minute that a new damn snake"

[Skumbo]

Originally Posted by red ink

If that was the case then....

Mate I would say that this "ban" is a non-event. All it's restricting is movement of animals not making the animals themselves "illegal".

1) You can still breed/sell in your state (maybe a chance to create a niche market for the hobby breeder)

2) Levels the playing field for the breeders out there...

3) You can't police what crosses state borders, you can just say you bought it there (as you said)

4) It's not enforceable (this from a licensing experience where I am) as there not even a regulatory body that will be monitoring this. There's no proposed census of your animals, so how would they no what you have and don't have or where the heck you bought it from.

5) No animal is "illegal" so realistically no biggie... I really don't see the state governments monitoring their borders that closely looking for "snakes". Or them knocking at your door saying "hey wait a minute that a new damn snake"

Exactly! The thing is just avoiding this going through because none of us want it to "open the floodgates" for instance.

I had a really awesome (and depressing) conversation with a friend at college, shes graduating in a few months and will be going back to norway (not what she was planning on) and needs to find a new home for her ball python (im going to take it in most likely) because of a "similar issue" that eventually sprung a ruling in 1977 (yeah a while ago, but the law still stands.) causing an all encompassing ban on reptile ownership in norway. All captive (even in zoos) offspring must be immediately exported (not sold though) or euthanized by law.

That said, its "estimated" that the "illegal herpiles are in the 100,000's in norway, and over 1,000 have been seized/euthanize (they just freeze them or shoot them to death usually on site) by the norweigan government (i looked into it a bit, there are stories about authorities coming in and not being able to confiscate an animal on technicality, so they "taped off" a mans living room and let the animal starve to death before he was allowed into that part of his house again. Others have come home to their animals out in their front yard frozen to death during the winter, as police get search warrants based on "suspected" ownership of reptiles a lot there, apparently.

take my rant as an example of why we don't want bans to begin, because in 40 years we may be in a country where the police can show up and murder your pets because they're not furry enough.

Keep in mind how heart breaking this is for my friend, she came here to study to become a veterinarian, and mainly wants to focus on reptiles, and because of her visa issues she has to move back to a country where its a felony to posses a reptile (keep in mind 5 months out of the year the average temperate is about -5 there, so these bans were passed purely due to sensationalism and political reasons.)

[millertime89]

But it IS enforceable. We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it. All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit. I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets. What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals.

The two species of Anaconda being on the list is ridiculous as well. One is present in no known collections and the other is only found in research labs/zoos.

Guess what?! MORE GOOD NEWS! NDAA went active tonight, go read a bit about it.

[Norm66]

I think I know where you're coming from Red Ink...from your point of view this ban doesn't seem too bad because of the restrictions you live with. Our point of view is a little different because we're not used to restrictions and don't want to be saddled with ones similar to some other countries. And as Skumbo mentioned a lot of us see these as stepping stones to total bans down the line.

IMHO all because "because they're not furry enough."

[Skumbo]

saying these snakes are dangerous to wildlife is like saying poodles are dangerous because other canines pack hunt antelope. Wouldnt want poodles out there murdering our specious ecosystem right? Right! Ban all poodles!


At the same time though, CRAZY things pop up in legislation all the time, there was a proposed ban last year that got this far that called for every sport to be banned in the united states because they were "too dangerous" and "Clearing land for sporting fields was ruining wildlife"

so you never know, it could get squashed

[red ink]

Originally Posted by millertime89

But it IS enforceable. We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it. All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit. I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets. What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals.

The two species of Anaconda being on the list is ridiculous as well. One is present in no known collections and the other is only found in research labs/zoos.

Guess what?! MORE GOOD NEWS! NDAA went active tonight, go read a bit about it.

I'm not trying to start an argument here.... just want to point out a few things.

1) "We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it"

Mate if that's the only way they can enforce it.... by people freely admitting they are breaking the law.... WELL, I'm sorry you deserve to get caught. It's like dumb criminals posting about crimes they have commited and wonder why they got caught and doing 10 - life.

2) "All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit."

I'm not advocating breaking legal laws but if the laws are this stupid then, it's "on them" as I see it. Again they are not that smart in the first place (hence trying to make this a law).

How about:
" Nah mate I sold that snake off to some guy in that state...."
" I bought this one here to compensate for my grief of losing my pet "

Again they only way you get caught is if you let them catch you.

3) "I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets."

Do you really think that owning a snake "banned" will be a felony offence. I'm pretty sure there are no animals out there that carry a felony offence.


4) "What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals."

That's life in the service mate... part and parcel of it. I'm sure service men leave behind more than just their beloved pets each time they move. Being posted interstate or being posted in Australia... all part of it mate.

[youngster]

Red has a good point

If they banned carpets and I had to move to VT how would anyone know?
I have no documents proving Mayhem has ever been in this state or that I even own him.
They can't trace the snake anywhere.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by red ink

I'm not trying to start an argument here.... just want to point out a few things.

1) "We post on here about the species we have and acquire and I promise you when I move out of this state I'll be posting a rave about it"

Mate if that's the only way they can enforce it.... by people freely admitting they are breaking the law.... WELL, I'm sorry you deserve to get caught. It's like dumb criminals posting about crimes they have commited and wonder why they got caught and doing 10 - life.

2) "All they would have to do is come track me down and prove that I had the animal in both states and then prosecute me as they see fit."

I'm not advocating breaking legal laws but if the laws are this stupid then, it's "on them" as I see it. Again they are not that smart in the first place (hence trying to make this a law).

How about:
" Nah mate I sold that snake off to some guy in that state...."
" I bought this one here to compensate for my grief of losing my pet "

Again they only way you get caught is if you let them catch you.

3) "I would rather not run the risk of becoming a felon but I also don't want to get rid of my pets."

Do you really think that owning a snake "banned" will be a felony offence. I'm pretty sure there are no animals out there that carry a felony offence.


4) "What about the members of the military that don't have a choice where they move sometimes and have these animals."

That's life in the service mate... part and parcel of it. I'm sure service men leave behind more than just their beloved pets each time they move. Being posted interstate or being posted in Australia... all part of it mate.

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

[millertime89]

Here's the Lacey Act of 1900 if you want to read it.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...DVEgB_q29nrNYw

[Skumbo]

Originally Posted by millertime89

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

"I went to ___ expo"

"No I don't remember his name, I just bought it there"

that's all it takes. they cant prove you guilty, so therefore you have reasonable doubt to be innocent.

that is, if they even tried to check, which they wont.

Let me put it this way..

hundreds of thousands of baggies of weed cross state lines every year, and sit obviously displayed in houses, bedrooms, etc.

nobody checks and nobody knows unless its an obvious stupid incident like having a giant bag of it in your passenger seat and getting pulled over or smoking it on your deck or something.

that said, those people are actually being actively pursued by governing bodies with regulating bodies etc etc while our "ban" barely has anyone who will check let alone KNOW about the law.

lets say you get pulled over while moving into a state and you have a boa in your back seat in a big box or something (kept warm etc) and the cop asks "whats in the box"
"Oh that's my pet snake"

"oh cool, i never had one of those" or "oh huh weird"

most cops wont even KNOW there's a snake importing law, and if they ask you just claim its a colubrid or something not banned and off you go, anyone knowing anything about snakes would probably be against the ban anyway.

[red ink]

Originally Posted by millertime89

1,2. We don't even have to admit to it, when we move to a different state we have to register in that state our vehicles, get a driver's license for that state, register to vote, and a number of other things that I'm not entirely sure about that I'm sure has to do with living there/owning a home there. Some states require permits, what happens when I go to file for a permit for my animals and they ask where they came from? Do I produce fake receipts and hope they don't check them? Or do I produce the originals and show that I broke the law? I had better hope I can find a breeder working with my species in my new state to say I bought from him? What if that state requires a breeder to keep track of all of his animals and he lies and says I bought from him and they ask to see the list of his inventory? Too many ways to get caught.

3. The Lacey Act does just that, makes it a felony to transport these species across state lines. Lacey Act of 1900
From section 3373: any person who knowingly violates section
3372 (d) of this title, may be assessed a civil penalty by the Secretary of not more than 10,000 for each such violation

From section 3375: if the person has reasonable grounds to believe that the person to be arrested has committed or is committing a felony; may search and seize, with or without a warrant, in accordance with any guidelines which may be issued by the Attorney General

So yeah, felony.

4. I'm not talking about deployment, a lot of the servicemembers I know have pets that go with them when they move, especially if they have families. But I can see your point.

1 2 3)

Fair enough mate... I did'nt know they were going to enforce it as a felony. I still don't see them devoting that much (if any) money and man power to look for snakes though. Govt are businesses, the bill will pacify the stakeholders... the enforcement of it will cost the business money. Money they do not easily part with...

Heck, they don't put enough money on things that actually matter, I'm VERY skeptical on them putting in the time, manpower, and money on making this work.

Again I think the only way to get caught is to blatantly flaunt it in their face.

[millertime89]

I don't think they're going to dedicate much time and effort into it in the majority of the states, but I woudl really rather not find out.

Re: saying you bought it an expo. Its all going to come down to local laws. If this gets passed on the national level you can bet states and cities are going to start passing more restrictive laws, and documentation is probably gonna be the easiest thing for them to get passed.

[Skumbo]

Originally Posted by millertime89

I don't think they're going to dedicate much time and effort into it in the majority of the states, but I woudl really rather not find out.

Re: saying you bought it an expo. Its all going to come down to local laws. If this gets passed on the national level you can bet states and cities are going to start passing more restrictive laws, and documentation is probably gonna be the easiest thing for them to get passed.

yeah, but ill be honest, I don't see it fully going through, at least not with the "full list" not that any affect the snakes I have or plan on having anyway. Adding even more would be harder than it seems, but ive seen some weird stuff get as far as this one (last year a bill to abolish all sporting activity in the entire United States other than pro sports was put through to a vote because "injury rates were too high" and "land used for sporting fields was damaging wildlife" and those actually had some background, but obviously were ill-founded.