I DONT want that snake........

[Strutter769]

Subtle or obvious, it's still a neurological disorder. What's more important than your neurological system? Not much IMO. To knowingly breed something that is undoubtedly to have a defect (because you like it's skin pattern?), I just really don't understand it. To me it sounds selfish and unbelievably cruel.

[jaleely]

Originally Posted by strutter769

Subtle or obvious, it's still a neurological disorder. What's more important than your neurological system? Not much IMO. To knowingly breed something that is undoubtedly to have a defect (because you like it's skin pattern?), I just really don't understand it. To me it sounds selfish and unbelievably cruel.

Agreed 100% and more if possible. Apparently Spiders (because of the "wobble"), Caramels (because of the kinking potential), Caramels (because of the female subfertility), Super lessers (because of the bug-eyes), Super cinnies (because of the duckbill/kinking). I copied that from another forum that was asking "oh does this make you NOT want to buy the snake, or do you not care?" basically.

At first when i started looking into BPs i thought morphs were great and i wanted to learn all about them...now i really think it's such a joke and such a terrible way to manage snakes. These people are not breeding pets, they are just trying to make money for themselves and have bragging rights.
NOW that is generalizing, yes. There are probably a lot of you out there who aren't like that...so sorry for saying it, i don't mean you, if that's not how you are
Blah. I don't know why you would continue to breed something that is proven to have BRAIN problems.

OKay, sorry i ranted too.

ANyway...so at first i wasn't that into BPs...but hey, i totally LIKE sock puppets! So i love'em now. I'm also not adverse to some basic gene morphs...but really there is no need to get crazy.

I actually LOVE the look of rattlesnakes...but I don't think i could ever own a hot because i know i am too clumsy, and too physical. I WOULD get bitten...and that would be scary, even if i had anti-venom.

I kind of don't like the look of boas...even though i have three. Hubby wanted the brazilian boa...and i do love her color, though i kind of don't like her mustache...lol
I wanted the dumeril's boas to keep breeding the captives to help prevent the want for illegal imports. Yeah yeah, i'm on my soap box =P

I was kind of against the fast little squirmy snakes at first, because i'm afraid of hurting them...but we are going to the reptile show in my area on Jan 7th, and I won't pass up a couple cute garters after seeing how irrefutably cute they are!!

So, at first i was kind of afraid of the larger snakes, too. I figured i would get over that though, as my babies grew. We measured my carpet's shed tonight and she's already 40 inches long! She's of course not that thick, though, but now i can't wait until she's bigger! A couple of our rescue balls are over 4 feet, but that doesn't actually seem that long unless he's wrapped around your neck or trying to get away into your chair...LOL

Honestly, I have to agree that I can find beauty in just about any reptile after a while, and i do have a variety I wouldn't turn down any snake if someone wanted to give it to me or it needed a home! But boy would i be paranoid if it was a hot!

[Norm66]

For me it's hots (I'm just not that together) and the BP morphs w/ known problems (add woma to the list above BTW). I really like the look of spiders but I've seen a couple videos of badly corkscrewing spiders and while some seem to find it funny I was heartbroken for the poor little thing. Definitely not for me. Morphs do really turn me on though. Just so long as they're not much more likely to be defective than normal snakes is all.

I'm not really into any snake that doesn't have a neck before its head for some reason so that leaves pretty much boas & pythons but I'm not ruling anything out. I'm still looking for an anery motley cornsnake that has a perfect motley pattern (they all seem to get some stripes) but I'm being very picky about it.

Giants don't bother me but our house is small so....yea.

[KORBIN5895]

Aren't all of these neurological problems due to inbreeding? If so pretty soon all morphs will have neuro problems.

[Norm66]

Korbin, from what I've read I don't believe that's the case. At least not with the spider BPs. It just seems to be something that's connected with the gene that produces the spider pattern.

[Will0W783]

Hmmm, a lot of the things I thought I would never keep, I now own. So, what would I still never keep?
I really don't care for anacondas- the face is too blobby and amorphous, and they tend to be aggressive.
I also am not a fan of a lot of the more subtle BP morphs, like cinnamon and dinker. Although a super cinnamon would be nice.
I would love a Gaboon viper, but too much risk- the only way I'd ever keep one was if I found a venomoid someone was selling, and then that brings up the messy fact of devenomizing, which I'm really not sure about. So no Gabby for me.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Nismo89

Spider wobble varies greatly from little to no wobble or only being present when in feed mode to very extreme wobble and head twirling. It's not the only snake out there that all in the specific morph have the same neurological disorder. I can't remember the exact one but there is a carpet python like that also. I don't think one with a very bad wobble should be bred but if it can still eat and seems to have a good life why shouldn't you let it live.

As for the snake I don't want I'd have to say corns and most colubirds they just don't really interest me. The one little snake I would like to own though is a few garters.

your talking of the coastal jaguar colour and pattern mutation known as the jag gene

NOT all jaguars show neurological issues

over on a carpet specific forum,one of the members asked,out of all the jag produced and owned by forum members,how many had neuro issues ?

it worked out as little as 5 to 10% of forum members jags showed slight to bad issues

i don't know a lot about the spider ball issue,but i am certain NOT all jags have issues

in all the jags i've owned only 2 had very slight head wobbles when excited,even then it took a trained eye to notice it

that said the neurological issues can be anything from a very slight head wobble to full corkscrewing

cheers shaun

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

Aren't all of these neurological problems due to inbreeding? If so pretty soon all morphs will have neuro problems.

the ONLY morph of all carpet python morphs associated with neurological issues is the jaguar morph

ALL other carpet morph's have NO neurological issues

the neuro issue has NOTHING to do with inbreeding

you can safely go up to F5's in carpets and produce healthy issue free hatchlings

i have NEVER heard of issues in line breeding carpets mate

the first clutch zebra supers to be produced had slight kinking in their tales,imo not enough supers have been produced to see if this effects all super zebra's

cheers shaun

[lady_bug87]

I would probably never keep Giants, Hots (like most) and any corns I have one colubrid and thats enough for me I probably wont own any more BPs unless its a blue eyed Leucy or a Super Cinnamon (or both? And call them Ebony and Ivory?)

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by strutter769

Subtle or obvious, it's still a neurological disorder. What's more important than your neurological system? Not much IMO. To knowingly breed something that is undoubtedly to have a defect (because you like it's skin pattern?), I just really don't understand it. To me it sounds selfish and unbelievably cruel.

imo only 5 to 10% of jaguars show neuro issues,which means there are a lot more healthy jags thriving out there,than there are unhealthy ones

being honest i do NOT feel cruel or selfish when it comes to breeding jags

out of all my jags only 2 had a very slight a head wobbles when excited,even then it took a trained eye to notice it

i respect your opinion,but it differs from mine

cheers shaun

[KORBIN5895]

I understand you can inbreed many animals several generations with no ill affect. Bit what happens when they get that awesome feature they are looking for and it has slight problems? Do they breed it one more time to sharpen the look? Then what happens with the babies when purchased? Does someone else sell them a litter mate and now they are breeding two problematic snakes to get a killer look.

What is that corn snake that only one person is producing? A pimento? So for someone else to produce it they either need to figure out its ancestry or get a related pair from the original breeder
My question is how inbred are these snakes to get this pimento look? And what problems does it pass down? Twenty years from now it maybe common but unless someone figures out how they are produced they will probably all be closely related with some serious issues. That is my thoughts at leas.

[lady_bug87]

^^ Palmetto

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I understand you can inbreed many animals several generations with no ill affect. Bit what happens when they get that awesome feature they are looking for and it has slight problems? Do they breed it one more time to sharpen the look? Then what happens with the babies when purchased? Does someone else sell them a litter mate and now they are breeding two problematic snakes to get a killer look.

What is that corn snake that only one person is producing? A pimento? So for someone else to produce it they either need to figure out its ancestry or get a related pair from the original breeder
My question is how inbred are these snakes to get this pimento look? And what problems does it pass down? Twenty years from now it maybe common but unless someone figures out how they are produced they will probably all be closely related with some serious issues. That is my thoughts at leas.

wayne will correct me if i'm wrong here but.....

years ago there were only a small breeding group of san fran garters originally donated to europe

so ALL the present san fran garters in europe and the uk came from those originals

wayne may be able to tell us if any problems have arisen and how many years of in breeding it took to show

as long as these PALMETTO snakes have NO health issues,then imo it don't matter how many line breedings it took to produce them,why would it matter if healthy snakes are produced ?

as far as breeding something that may have slight health problems to attain a certain look.....

imo that is down to each individual breeders moral compass mate,you have to wiegh the bad against the good,like with most decisions in life

i personally would NOT breed a clutch that i knew ALL the hatchlings would be tainted

but i would breed a clutch where only a small minority may be effected

the above is only my personal opinion and me being honest with you all

i am currently keeping F2 pair of specific line bred irian jaya's.if they keep improoving each generation,then i will take it to F5,F6 if i see NO health issues

cheers shaun

[KORBIN5895]

I am a ok with inbreeding animals as long as there are no serious health affects. My thought was that most strains of morph come from a small gene pool. Hence the problems that crop up. I very well could be wrong but I also doubt you will ever breed two wild caught normal bps and get a Lucy or a super cinnamon.

Again breeding for a look is fine but when 70% have a serious kinking issue that is not okay with me unless you are willing to put those 70% down and end there misery. That's my honest opinion. I do understand and agree with you decision Shaun. Thanks for being so honest w

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I am a ok with inbreeding animals as long as there are no serious health affects. My thought was that most strains of morph come from a small gene pool. Hence the problems that crop up. I very well could be wrong but I also doubt you will ever breed two wild caught normal bps and get a Lucy or a super cinnamon.

Again breeding for a look is fine but when 70% have a serious kinking issue that is not okay with me unless you are willing to put those 70% down and end there misery. That's my honest opinion. I do understand and agree with you decision Shaun. Thanks for being so honest w

if the number of unhealthy snakes in a clutch were going to be as high as 70%,then i personally would not breed them mate

i feel around 10% to 20% would be acceptable

one of the reasons i want a black headed python is for its cannabilistic nature.the bhp would be fed any misformed hatchlings

the bhp is a snake eating snake,so i have no problems feeding it prey thats natural to it

imo its mother nature doing her thing

cheers shaun