Once easy-to-feed BP on a feeding strike?

[Chu'Wuti]

you sound like just the person to do that research

Thanks (I think)---I'll take that as a compliment. However, as much as I love my animals, I'm not a herpetologist. I'm just a doctoral student in an entirely different field who has learned how to find research literature, read it for the important information, and evaluate it--it's part of my job.

I have no intent of offending anyone, and I am working to switch my BP to rats. I'm just saying we shouldn't jump on the rat bandwagon too strongly because we don't have all the info we need on this subject. Future research may reveal that a different diet is even better.

At this point, though, we're all doing the best we can--you, Aaron, Julian, etc. all care about your snakes just as I do, and we all are taking care of them in a way that seems to be optimal with the info we have. Seeing your snakes grow faster certainly appears to support the idea that rats are better, and their growth rate supports the research showing that rats provide more energy.

Now you can all say--look what Chu'Wuti's curiosity got us into! No more curiosity!

[mykee]

"I have no intent of offending anyone, and I am working to switch my BP to rats. I'm just saying we shouldn't jump on the rat bandwagon too strongly because we don't have all the info we need on this subject. "

Bandwagon? Seriously?.. you make it sound like feeding rats to ball pythons is a fad that has taken hold in the last few years. I understand your desire to find out what food is best for a ball python, but unless you are willing to go to western Africa and catch some gerboas, you're SOL...
Rats: The new fad.

[Aaron_S]

We could most likely switch our ball pythons to dwarf bunnies. How about guinea pigs?

It's a good thing that someone is looking into what our animals "need" but as I said it's also a convience. It's easy to raise rats, it's easy to feed them and the snakes take them like no tomorrow. Why ruin a good thing?

[mykee]

As well as being "easy" Aaron, there is also the fact that ball pythons maintain a healthy weight eating "just rats", they breed when sexually mature eating "just rats", they have solid and regular stool eating "just rats", they have enough fat storage to breed successfully eating "just rats" and they live long lives eating "just rats".
"Just rats" sounds like a perfect food item for ball pythons, non?

[Chu'Wuti]

you make it sound like feeding rats to ball pythons is a fad that has taken hold in the last few years

Gosh, I sure didn't mean it to come across that way! I'm so sorry.

I recognize the value of convenience for feeding our snakes, and I'm not trying to diminish its importance. Remember I said way back up the line in this thread that I'm curious?

I simply want to learn more. I enjoy learning and after having a mother whose favorite answer to my questions was a frustrating, "Because I said so, that's why!" or "Because it's better that way, and don't ask any more questions!", I'm pretty rebellious when it comes to finding out more. I tried never to do that to my kids because I hated it so much myself. Maybe there are no definitive answers--I've certainly found that to be true over and over, and maybe the best solutions--like feeding rats--rest as much on convenience as on science. Doesn't mean I won't want to know more.

After all, why do you think I joined this forum? I've got books, I've read multiple care sheets--I just want to know more.

Sorry to be such a source of frustration for you. Just think of me as the little kid who's always asking, "Why? But why?"

[mykee]

Don't get me wrong, I understand completely where you are coming from, and I think we got carried away with your initial post on this topic and just kept going on our own fuel. I am a big fan of the "yeah, but why" way of thinking as well, and I tend to research topics to no end as well. The fact remains though that this topic specifically can't be tied up in a neat little bow because even though we know the nutritional breakdons of every food source available to man, we don't know the optimal nutritional requirements of a ball pythons. I do know that rats have become the accepted food item for ball pythons not because they're easy but because they work.
So, on this topic, a line from Tommy Boy starring the late, great Chris Farley:

"I can get a good look at a T-bone by sticking my head up a bull's a$$, but I'd rather take the butcher's word for it."

[Chu'Wuti]

I am a big fan of the "yeah, but why" way of thinking as well, and I tend to research topics to no end as well.

Whew! I'm relieved to hear I'm not alone! ;-)

The fact remains though that this topic specifically can't be tied up in a neat little bow because even though we know the nutritional breakdons of every food source available to man, we don't know the optimal nutritional requirements of a ball pythons. I do know that rats have become the accepted food item for ball pythons not because they're easy but because they work.

Yes, I began to see that (we can't tie it up in a neat bow) as I was searching for lit on this topic. In some ways, I ended up more frustrated because here we are relying on a 6-year old meta-analysis that is based on research of the nutrient analyses of mice and rats from as long ago as 1976! and some of it with very small sample sizes that would preclude any truly valid conclusions. Analytical techniques have improved enormously since 1976 and even since 1996. It became very clear that more research is needed, and especially that someone should find out what our pythons actually need.

I recognize that they grow, appear healthy, reproduce, etc. on a pure rat diet, and I'm not disparaging that, guys, truly! But I'd like to know if they need more copper or zinc or iron or less to be healthy down to the molecular level.

Just remember, I'm a !!

[Aaron_S]

You get to Africa and do some field research on that for us

Although there's ONE good way to figure out how much your snake is getting. Breed your own and feed them what YOU want to feed them. Then you know what is going into your snakes. Sadly, it's not viable for all of us to do this so for those of us who can't we just need to be sure where we buy our feeders from. Even then it might be difficult because how do you truely know what is in the food you feed the rats? Maybe then we need a 'rodent garden'. Hmm, I may have to take up a part of the garden next year

[mykee]

Aaron; I breed my own rats because of that very reason. I've been producing rats for over 7 years to feed to my collection. I feed only the highest quality lab food and keep them immaculately clean so that I can monitor and maintain the highest quality of rodents.
However, due to my colonies being so established, I have no desire whatsoever to branch out and breed ASF's, gerboas, or any other "alternative" food source for my snakes.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Aaron_S]

I truely don't know anything about these ASF's. If I had the room I would start up a rat colony. Especially with the woody pet substrate.Seems to be a blessing.

What are Gerboa's?

[mykee]

Jerboas are the ACTUAL food item that ball pythons are said to eat IN Africa:

Jerboa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Aaron_S]

Has anyone cultivated them for ball python cunsumption? Are they related to gerbils?

[Chu'Wuti]

Do they only eat jerboas? Or do they eat other things, too? Hmmm . . . more research. Ack.

[mykee]

Ball pythons are opportunistic feeders, meaning they will spend ALL of their waking hours in the wild hunting or hiding out waiting for food. They will eat as much as they can because they do not know when their next meal will be. Because I have not followed around stalking or hunting ball pythons in Africa, I cannot provide you with an educated answer on all of the different food items they eat.

[Aaron_S]

Well hop on a plane and get to it! While you are there, want to send me some "new morphs" to "flip"

Aren't most boids,and snakes, opportunistic? Or am I just generalizing way too much. I believe it's more with boids than other snakes.