Reptile Refuge at it again!

[TPiorun]

I take exception to this statement:

Curvy and Nigel have never fought, and despite reports they are solitary animals, seem to enjoy each other's company. They often sit on and with each other, Springate said.
"I'd never spent the time to think it was wrong to keep the rock pythons together," he said.
"I was simply following protocol. When these animals are imprisoned and all their rights are taken away, at least they have each other."


I wish to point out that the only reason they might actually sit together it because it is the warmest spot in the enclosure. As discussed recently with Brad MacDonald.. He made the point that if released together it would be his bet that the snakes would not travel in the same direction they would actually go there own separate ways. These animals compete for food and space they do not wish to stay together.

anyway.. onward and upward

Terri
FVHS

[Linds]

I have to agree with Dr. Antfarm in regards to housing animals together and accidental breedings. Reproduction takes A LOT out of animals, and females shouldn't be subjected to this for any other reason than actually reproducing. If the ultimate goal is not reproduction, than breedable animals should not be allowed access to eachother. IMHO it is irresponsible. If there isn't adequate space to house them seperately, then that is the issue that needs to be addressed, not the issues resulting from it (band-aid solutions).

A segment from my very long-winded letter to ctv after seeing that segment...

Reported: Curvy still has a companion to keep her company.
Fact: It is a well-known fact that snakes are solitary animals. They do not enjoy the company of other snakes, and the only time they come together in the wild is to breed. In fact, housing multiple snakes in an enclosure presents a multitude of problems. Some of which include stress which can lead to behavioural problems and feeding problems, sickness, difficulty monitoring the animals on an individual basis, and careless breedings. Only snakes mature enough and of good condition should be allowed to breed. This snake is small for her species and sex, which is no doubt because she has been bred back to back five times as an immature snake, hence stunting her growth substantially. If they are concerned about the captive population growing, why are they allowing them to breed anyways? Breeding is very hard on a snakes system, I wouldn't expect this snake to live its full expectancy under the conditions she has been exposed to.

[annieb_mice]

Wow, Linds! GREAT letter! Well... PART of the letter anyways... LOL!
On a side note.... the WSPCR is holding a reptile show and sale in Richmond, B.C. this coming weekend.... I wonder how this recent press will affect it and the upcoming one in August in Burnaby?
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Dr. Antfarm]

Here's a copy of the email I sent to the Surrey Leader in response to a rather pro-RRR editorial. Forgive the poor spelling, it was late.

I just read an editorial regarding the current issues raised from the story regarding Rain Forest Reptiles. One I would like to say that I totally oppose the stance that Paul Springate has taken regarding the exotic pet industry. His tactics are deplorable, and his facts highly questionable. The husbandry pracitces of this instutution would be worth a public investigation.

Secondly, to say that a bann is the only solution to unwanted exotics is purely foolish and myopic. Banning these animals will not eliminate the problem. The problem lies not with those that are responsible keepers, but those that impulse buy these animals. I agree that no everyone should own a African Rock Python or any of the giant snakes or lizards. There are however those that are prepared and skilled enough to care for these animals. The question is how to cut out those that impulse buy these animals, or those that are seduced by the "cool" factor?

I think the solution can be found in Australia. In Australia, inorder to puchase and keep reptiles of any kind, a person has to qualify for a license. This is a graduated process, by which a person is granted a beginner level permit, enabling the Keeper to obtain reptiles that are easier to to keep. If all goes well for one year, then the person can apply for the next level. Before the license is granted, the person applying has to prove that they are compitent to care for these animals, and I believe a home inspection is part fo the process.

I think this is a policy that Canada as a whole needs to adopt. I also feel that a hefty fee should come with the license too. This I believe will make people stop and think about what they are getting into when they consider buying a reptile or any exotic.

I also ask why there isn't the same movement to bann dogs, cats, or horses as pets? I go to my local SPCA and see it over flowing with dogs, cats, rabbits, rats, hamsters, birds, and hear cases of cruelty towards horses. If one applies the same logic, then it is clear that trade in these animals should also be banned.

Those same people that wish to bann reptiles in the pet trade would also have people believeing that these animal were taken from the wilds of their home lands. Also not true. While there are wild caught speicmens available in the trade, the vast majority of reptiles on the market are captive bred and born. Many thousands are being produced every year some speciemens
costing over $100 000USD . Look to breeders such as Bob Clark, Mike Wilbanks, New England Reptile Distributors, VPI, just to name a few. These are large scale breeding operations that produce thousands of high quality, well cared for animals. In Canada our large breeders are not hard to find either. Henry Piorun, Todd Constable, Don Patterson, again just to name a
few.

I would also encourage people not to discount the conservation aspect of the reptile industry. There are some very well respected scientists that are behind the conservation through commercialization model. People like Dr. Fry of Australia, Mark O'Shea of the U.K. have spoken out infavour of this school of thought. The sad part is that some animals are nearly extict in
their natural setting, but thrive in captivity. The Hogg Island Boa, and the Figian Banded Iguana come to mind.

For now though, people will buy exotics for the cool factor. Some will buy them because they truely are committed to their husbandry, and the propigation of the various species. It is for the later, and for the contiued survival of these animals, that a licensing process needs to be adopted inorder to maintian an ethical standard for the care of these animals.

[Mike177]

I totally agree but there is one place where i have to disagree

I also feel that a hefty fee should come with the license too.

being a 16 and owning a burmese python I do think people should have to get a license to keep these anamals but I dont think a heafty fee would help, if your going to take the time to go threw 3 years (or how ever long it would take to obtain a license to keep a large constrictor) a large fee wouldnt make a person think about it more serously just empty his/her walet. the only reson i say this is that i work enouph hours as it is to pay the feed bill and i woulnt want to have to shell out just to keep a permit.

[beth wallbank]

Hey Annie, is there any way of getting ahold of a copy of some of the letters that the WSPCR has sent to the RRR and hand them over to the media to deffend the fact that offers of help and support have been given, and turned down just as fast? This alone would start the discrediting of the RRR in the public eye

[annieb_mice]

Beth... you'll have to contact Amanda Fenrick as she was one of the people to have sent a letter. I do know there were several other people, with years of reptile experience, who have offered to volunteer their time at the RRR, but had been turned down because they owned, or had previously owned, reptiles. Again, I believe Amanda may be able to help you seek these people out. There may also be several on this forum who have offered. If I recall correctly, I believe Terri P. also offered to assist the RRR in the letter she wrote to one of the newspapers.
With all these offers of help, it appears that the RRR is only interested in those individuals who have NO knowledge of reptiles at all, so they won't know the deplorable conditions these animals live in.
Take care
Annie B. <:3 )~~

[Dr. Antfarm]

being a 16 and owning a burmese python I do think people should have to get a license to keep these anamals but I dont think a heafty fee would help, if your going to take the time to go threw 3 years (or how ever long it would take to obtain a license to keep a large constrictor) a large fee wouldnt make a person think about it more serously just empty his/her walet. the only reson i say this is that i work enouph hours as it is to pay the feed bill and i woulnt want to have to shell out just to keep a permit.

To my knowledge, the licensing process in Australia only takes a month or two. A fee is needed because people often times will only consider things interms of economics. If someone comes across a $50USD Burm, then they might think twice whent he realise that the license to keep them will be alot more. Same thing in Canada.

[Bryce Masuk]

Licencing doesnt need to be expensive It should take some effort to become licenced though.

We dont even really need licencing if we had a OUTRIGHT ban of petstores selling animal's they shouldn't be selling Burm's Rock's Iggy's Tegu's and many others animal's of that sort SHOULD NOT be sold in a petstore. They should only be able offer Animal's a beginner can handle taking care of.

Because in reality that's where most of those animals came from. Thats why they were abandoned pet stores misinformed owners or it was a impluse buy.
People who seek out breeders are a lot less likely to abandon them where as the person who bought a new pair of shoes and a snake from the mall has no clue what they just did.

Obviously this cant work completely if breeders themselves are unethical though but I think stopping petstores from selling more advanced animal's to beginers is a step in the right direction It cant hurt