So mad I could Vomit with rage!!!!

[mykee]

Lisa: all the time, but if that same person came online EVERY month and said it, honestly, what would be the advice given?

"My whole point is that ball pythons CAN and Do live on one rat a month."

Congratulation, science experiment completed, you've proved your point.

[Slannesh]

Ontario: bunch of stuff.

I said caresheets were useful. I never said they were the last word, and I hardly "Live and die' by them. In fact I cautioned people from reading one and taking it as correct. Read as many as you can find. Books were written by people too you know. They can contain mistakes just as easily as any caresheet. And yet, an online caresheet can be corrected in seconds, a book? Well next edition. Which basically means never unless it's a huge selling title. The information they contain was collected in exactly the same way, captive observation and experimentation.

I've been keeping herps in one form or another most of my life. Ball Pythons for the last 6 years. I know nothing about breeding ball pythons nor have I ever claimed to. I don't breed my snake and have no plans to in the near future.

You seem to think that books can't make mistakes. I assure you they can, there is a reason that the encyclopedia britannica is published every year. To add new information and to correct past mistakes. It happens, bad information can be found from any source. So get off your high horse and stop talking down to us like you're some sort of expert. You aren't. Neither am I. When you have 20+ years in the field and have raised hundreds of Ball Pythons and still have your original ones healthy and active at 20+ years of age i'll concede pretty much any point you make.

Since, to my knowledge, no one that has participated in this discussion thus far has such experience it's turned into nothing more than a pissing contest.

On to your next point. *Quoting from Ontario herper*
"My whole point is that ball pythons CAN and DO live on one rat a month. People have come on here and said that I am cruel and shouldn't keep herps. One even went as far to say he wouldn't sell me a herp (I don't remember offering to buy?). People's only defense for why they should be fed every 10 days (or whatever period) is that once a month is too long and they wouldn't do that. Well WHY wouldn't you?"

People's only defence.. that's funny. I gathered my information from years of reading any source material I could find, Books, websites, the discovery channel, whatever. That, and now years of experience. I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm. I am certain your snake will survive for a long time on the feeding regimine you have it on. Snakes in general have a very slow metabolism, being cold blooded is an advantage in that regard.

This isn't a court. I don't have to prove you're being cruel to your snake. I think you are feeding it much less than you should be. Perhaps i'm feeding mine more than she 'needs' to simply survive. Any animal can last for a long time on barely adequite nutrition. You could feed your ball only a few times a year and it would likely live for a few years. Slow metabolism and cold blooded. You never bothered to answer my question.. Would you be concerend if someone told you they were only offering prey to their Ball python once every 4 months? I know I would be.

It would be another matter entirely if you were in a situation like Vanan, his snake refuses food except for once every 4-6 weeks or so. That's fine, the snake is choosing to eat at that point and for THAT snake it's perfectly normal. Would your snake take prey once every 2 weeks? Once a week? I would imagine it would, knowing general ball behavior.

Next question, could your snake survive a 7 month fast like djc3647's did last year? I'm confident mine could. She's never missed more than a couple of meals the entire time i've had her, but I know it is not unusual for Balls to refuse to eat for months over the winter.

[sarcasm] But since I probably learned that from a care sheet i'm sure it's wrong information and I should immedately panic and take my snake to the vet *rolls eyes* [/sarcasm]

About enclosure size. I know many people successfully keep snakes and lizards in what I consider small enclosures. Now I can only speak about animals I have actual experience in but this is a whole other topic.

Breeding: It's a biological drive that all creatures have, just like eating. Since I doubt your Ball is Wild Caught your implied opinion on breeding really makes you look foolish. Reproduction uses a lot of stored energy, calcium and many other things. That's why people who breed them take the precautions they do by cooling the snake and feeding them extra in preparation to breed them. While I don't breed BP's myself I have done some reading on the subject. We wouldn't have the hobby we do today if not for those who bred snakes in the past so I think you should recheck your attitude there. Unless of coure you think there's nothing wrong with year after year of unnecessary wild capture when there are lots of CB animals available.

[KristenM]

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"We wouldn't have the hobby we do today if not for those who bred snakes in the past so I think you should recheck your attitude there."

If you are refering to Dave's last post, read it again, hes posing a question not a personal opinion. And Dave has more respect for the "old time herpers" (no offence), the very people you are talking about who bred snakes way back before you or I was even a zygote, than the majority of herpers I know.

Also you metioned something to the effect that this whole thread is a "pissing contest" because someone without 20+ years keeping and breeding ball pythons hasn't posted on here. Well Scotty Allen made a post and supporting what Dave said, and he has been keeping and breeding snakes for 20+ years. And is an "old time herper" himself (no offence Scotty), you know one of those people who "bred snakes in the past". Does his opinion not count?

Also I know first hand that the animal that Dave is speaking about is a rescued animal, I am very familiar with its history. And I know that it may very well be wild caught, because it is a rescued animal and no one knows for sure where it came from originally. Alsoo the snake is an healthy adult animal that has been in Daves care for almost 4 years and is thriving! I'm am 100% confident that the animal in question could survive a 7 month fast, because I have seen it survive a 6 month fast first hand.

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"You seem to think that books can't make mistakes.... So get off your high horse and stop talking down to us like you're some sort of expert."
I'm pretty sure we are all aware that books, or anything else in print , can have mistakes. His point is that there is much more infromation in the right book, or from the right person first hand and less room for error, because they are edited by people who know what they are talking about. Unlike, the internet where any anybody can make up a care sheet (I saw on your site that you have a ball python care sheet comming, looking forward to it!). I know many great herpers who don't go on the internet for a good reason, they think most of it is crap, kinda like this thread. Not to say there is not good info on the net, or that things can't be learned on a site like this. I know I have gotten some great info on web sites abotu herps. But ask any of the old time herpers, those who have worked with snakes for 20-30+ years, or any creditted herper at all, I would put money down that they would rather use, a book, than the net.

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm."

Now whos on a high horse? With this statement you are implying that you are right. There is no right answer to this debate. Again going from what I said above about info on the net, no offence to those who posted, but just because people agree with you does not mean they know what they are talking about or that they are credible sources. I'm sure many of the people who posted on here have good reason for their opinion but that does not mean that is the norm or that its right.

Anyways, I would love to hear some opinions from those who have kept snakes for 20+ years, I think we could learn something.

[Ontario_herper]

“Would you be concerend if someone told you they were only offering prey to their Ball python once every 4 months?”

Simple answer, yes. I don’t believe that a ball python would be able to maintain a healthy body weight on a 3 meal-a-year schedule. As I’ve pointed out a dozen times my snakes holds a healthy body weight on it’s current feeding schedule.

“could your snake survive a 7 month fast like djc3647's did last year. I'm confident mine could?"

I have little doubt that my snake could go a year without food. I guess this will be number 13… my snake is of good health and holds good body weight. Thus it could survive a long period of time without food (as we know many snakes can).

Just because your snake may be a bit fatter than mine doesn’t make it better off. Note: I have not seen your snake and you have not seen mine so this is all speculation. Sure…. Your snake may be able to go 14 months without food while mine may only be able to go 12 months. I weigh only 190lbs. Someone weighing 550lbs may be able to survive a longer period of time without food. Does that make him superior to me? Would you asses this 550lb person as being healthier than me? Somehow I think not! So this question you asked me seems somewhat useless.

Of course you don’t have to prove that I am “being cruel” to my snake. I was simply asking WHY you think I was. I wanted you to go beyond a couple care sheets and a few peoples opinions (their expertise we know nothing of). You gave me no facts of how my snake was going to eventually die from “starvation”. Instead you just said that it would.

To some extent I agree with your comparison between books and on-line care sheets. Both may contain errors. But keep in mind the amount of effort it takes to publish a book in comparison to that of creating an on-line care sheet. If you give me 30 minutes I can publish on the net. Can you do the same with a book?

Of course breeding is a biological fact. I am 22 years old you hardly need to point that out to me lol. And of course I am all for breeding snakes. I wouldn’t have any of the snakes in my collection if someone hadn’t bred them. I was just pointing out (in a sarcastic way) that you have to essentially starve a snake, in a controlled way, to get it to breed. So why do you not consider that cruel?

BTW I claimed no where in my post to be an expert! The basic message of all my posts is that my snake does fine on its current feeding schedule. It doesn’t take an “expert” to look at a snake and decide whether or not it’s under weight.

[Cerastes]

I just wanted to add a few points of enlightenment...

I have 20 years experience with snakes, including ball pythons and I have bred that species a few times also.

I have also had the pleasure of visiting David Smith's collection more than a few times and can vouch completely for his keeping expertise!

Now, I won't name names - I simply have more class than that. There are way too many newbies typing up a lot of crap.

It is way too easy to get caught up in one of these rant threads on the internet. It's the very reason I generally stopped making posts a couple of years ago. The arguements get singled out and then everyone gangs up on a few individuals mostly because they don't understand enough to read between the lines on the internet.

In this case it seems (as usual) it's the more experienced keepers getting lamb-basted by the newer keepers! The statements made by David and Vanan regarding ball python husbandry are accurate. Most of the statements depend on the condition of the animal in question - if an adult ball python is being kept properly (and not being cycled for breeding) an appropriately sized meal every month or so is not unreasonable! You people need to learn more - I'd be listening to Scotty more if I were you! He said (to refresh your memories) "There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here."

Now, I digress. I will return to my normal absence from the internet, and let you guys get back to your senseless arguements. I just hope when all the dust settles you learn to listen to those with more experience than yourselves - that's how we all learn!

Steve Marks


Hello, this is Lori Dunn - Steve's better (or worse) half. I am a reptile keeper at the Toronto Zoo with 12 years experience. We keep Python regius in the area I work in. Working with a wide variety of animals, you need to be very aware of their metabolic and nutritional requirements. It is far too easy for captive animals to become overweight - and i have seen my fair share of this and the subsequent death of the animals as well. Most animals in captive environment do much better in the long run if kept slightly hungry. It mimics their natural condition in the wild - as I'm sure you are all aware, most wild animals ARE on the hungry side. Reptiles especially, are not equipped physiologically to metabolize fat. Especially when they are overfed rodents that are in turn fed a high fat diet ( mouse chow, dog chow etc.) Wild rodents feed on seeds and vegetation that is much lower in fat content and so not much fat is passed on to the snake devouring it. Kids, please read up on your reptile husbandry. Overfeeding snakes is the kiss of death for that animal. Maybe not immediately, but in time. Our ball pythons also get fed only once a month, sometimes they go longer. They are healthy snakes and we have been reproductively successful with them as well.

Lori Dunn

[Sunrunner]

We can all learn something everyday And all though I have not changed my view I do honestly believe their is more then one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. Like in my other line of work as a fitness professional as in reptile husbandry not one things works for every subject. Perhaps Dave's way is right so perhaps is mine or Slannesh's. But ore likely so are both. Sorry for being stubborn. Only be keeping our minds open and listening can we improve. If things were still done like they were 50 years ago (feeding turtles dried ant eggs, etc) where would our captive herps be? Sorry Ont Herper for getting to personal a better idea would be in the future for us both to learn from each other and not bicker over our differing views. There is no one way. Everyone has valid points and every one has invalid points. I personally know reptile keepers with just as much experience as the above two (Lori & Steve) who believe the opposite and have been equally successful. There is so much more we need to learn of these incredible animals that saying my answer is the right one is not even possible. We could all be totally wrong with our care. Only by experimenting and study can we learn. Let's try and do it as a team...not rivals.

[Slannesh]

Interesting how Ontario Herper just HAPPENS to have a friend with 20+ years of experience poke his nose into here, not right off the bat when we all wondered what the more experienced among us have to say, but when I said i'd shut up when someone experienced came in and proved us all wrong.

You'll excuse me if i'm a tad skeptical i'm sure.

Where was an experienced keeper being 'lambasted' by someone very new to the hobby? I've been keeping herps in one form or another for almost 20 years. Seriously for the last 6 or 7. Most of the other people sounding off on this topic seems to be of similar experience.

On to a few quotes

The first two from our suddenly present friend of Ontario's Cerastes

There are way too many newbies typing up a lot of crap.

Aw, I think he's talking to me. Nice to know i'm making a lot of friends. Thanks. What exactly have I stated about Ball Python husbandry that was 'crap'?

"Most of the statements depend on the condition of the animal in question - if an adult ball python is being kept properly (and not being cycled for breeding) an appropriately sized meal every month or so is not unreasonable!"

Agreed, different animals eat at different rates. We've already clearly established that. What got me started in the first place was the orginal post stated:

"bp about 3.5 ft long. This guy said he feeds it a small/med rat once per month "so it won't get too big." If that wasn't bad enough he said he just dumps the rat in live so "he doesn't have to touch it."

Would you agree that is adequite husbandry? I sure wouldn't, and said so. So then tell us, what is unreasonable? We already know that offering a suitably sized prey item once every 4 weeks is acceptable to you. How about 6 weeks? 3 months? 4?

And another one from my dear friend Cerastes:

I'd be listening to Scotty more if I were you! He said (to refresh your memories) "There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here."

My memory is quite good, along with that interesting reading thing my parents taught me when I was 3 or so. My snake is not overweight. So what relevance does that have to whether or not only feeding a BP once a month at all? None. I would come down on someone just as hard if I heard they were feeding the same snake every other day.

And a parting shot from the above:

I will return to my normal absence from the internet, and let you guys get back to your senseless arguements. I just hope when all the dust settles you learn to listen to those with more experience than yourselves - that's how we all learn!

Thanks, hopefully you'll do more than just wave your buddy's flag next time you come around and tell us all how right he is again. Again I ask, with slightly different wording this time. Which aspect of Ball Python husbandry that I offered was "Senseless"?

And just in case his 20 year+ experience friend wasn't enough:

Hi Lori!

I am a reptile keeper at the Toronto Zoo with 12 years experience

Iv'e done a lot of volunteering at the Calgary zoo while I still lived in Calgary, (which in case you are wondering involves feces more often than pretty much any job you could ever want) Would you mind clarifying what exactly is a "reptile keeper" For us? Are you a zookeeper? Animal Health Technologist? A Vet perhaps? I would just like to get the facts straight.

It is far too easy for captive animals to become overweight - and i have seen my fair share of this and the subsequent death of the animals as well.

At the zoo you work for? I thought they were all properly fed and you "you need to be very aware of their metabolic and nutritional requirements" Or does that apply only to the ball pythons, which is the only species we're talking about in this thread.

Wild rodents feed on seeds and vegetation

I hope you are aware that most nuts are high in fat content.
A handy table I found using a quick Google search.
Nuts (1oz) Saturated Fat (g) Total Fat (g)
Mixed nuts, oil-roasted 2.5g 16g
Pecans 1.5g 18.3g
Pine nuts 2.2g 14.3g
Pistachios 1.7g 13.7g
Walnuts 1g 16g
Ginkgo nuts 0.1g 0.6g
Butter nuts 0.4g 16.2g

1 ounce = 28.35 grams
So all but two of the above examples were more than half fat of those two one was very close and one was very low.

Seems like a low fat diet for mr Rat to me! Which I suppose is totally irrelevant since Ball Pythons do not eat rats in the wild at all. But i'm sure she knew that.

Kids, please read up on your reptile husbandry. Overfeeding snakes is the kiss of death for that animal. Maybe not immediately, but in time.

Nice and condecending. Yet still no actual information. I'm closer to 30 than 29 so I hardly qualify as a 'kid' to anyone other than my parents and grandparents. And did you miss the part where I mentioned the literally dozens of caresheets and books, shows on the discovery channel that i'd read and seen regarding snakes in general and Ball Pythons in particular? Or did you just jump in here, offer no valuable information other than basically 'our friend is right and you're all wrong so shut up about it' and then want to take off?

Please. All you've done is given the pot another stir while trying to add credence to your friends theory with no facts or hell, even specific observations to back any of it up.

In all honesty i'm more or less done with this topic myself by now, it's obvious those of us who agree with my way of thinking will continue to do so and those of you who agree with Ontario will also do so. For everyone's pets I hope we're both half wong and i'm feeding her twice what she should be eating and you're only feeding them half. Hopefully we'll have less dead snakes that way.

Feel free to get in your last word and parting gifts

Slan.

[Slannesh]

Just thought i'd fire off a quick reply to KristenM as well since i'm at it

Scotty had this to say:

A wonderful, sound sensible post David, good on ya'. There's an awfully lot of grossly over fed captive snakes (and other herps) out there, maybe someone will learn something here

I said "To my knowledge" I have no idea who Scotty is, in fact the only person I know that uses this forum at all is Invictus.

Scotty said he agrees that overfeeding is bad. I agree that overfeeding is bad. I would jump on someone probably even harder for feeding an adult Ball Python every other day than I would for once a month. Granted I doubt there are many Balls that would willingly take an appropriately sized meal every other day. he did not however say he agreed with everything Ontario herper has posted in this thread however. Just that point.

Onto your post:

If you are refering to Dave's last post, read it again, hes posing a question not a personal opinion. And Dave has more respect for the "old time herpers" (no offence), the very people you are talking about who bred snakes way back before you or I was even a zygote, than the majority of herpers I know.

And just for clarity the post of Ontario herpers' that we're talking about

And now let me pose this question……

Is it cruel and in-humane to breed reptiles?

After all I was accused of starving my ball python by feeding it only once a month. How about cooling an animal and not feeding it for several months? Breeding can be extremely taxing on the health of a reptile, females especially. So how do you feel about putting animals through this sort of ordeal?

He was defending his normal practice of feeding his snake once a month by asking if I thought it was cruel to cool a snake to get it to breed.

Some species of snakes will not breed unless such precautions are taken. I've already stated I don't know much about Ball Python breeding so I don't know if it's necessary for them to do so. Breeding is a natural thing for every living thing on this planet. Of course it isn't cruel, it can definately be traumatic for the animal, but it's not cruel. I think only offering food once a month is cruel. If he was offering every two weeks and the snake refused like Vanaths does i'd be fine with it. But he's stated that he doesn't do that.

Moving along

His point is that there is much more infromation in the right book, or from the right person first hand and less room for error, because they are edited by people who know what they are talking about. Unlike, the internet where any anybody can make up a care sheet

So there are no knowledgeable people on the net offering good advice at all. Caresheets don't ever get edited do they? And none of them could possibly be written by anyone who has any knowledge of the subject of course. What rubbish. Books are generally written by people who know what they're talking about. They're edited by someone who cares about spelling and grammatical errors and how many pages of space the book will take up and how many pages of 'useless information' they can crop so it'll all fit into the X # of pages the Publisher decided to grace this particular author with.

I also recall cautioning people against reading only one caresheet and taking it as 100% correct. Read as many as you can find, When most of them agree i'm a lot more comfortable accepting that information as correct. There are people publishing completely untrue information in caresheets. My method catches most if not all of those errors.

Quoting you quoting me

*Quoting "Slannesh"*
"I could be wrong, but when the vast majority of individuals who have discussed this topic agree with me that tells me that my experience is far from unique. It is the norm."

Now whos on a high horse? With this statement you are implying that you are right. There is no right answer to this debate. Again going from what I said above about info on the net, no offence to those who posted, but just because people agree with you does not mean they know what they are talking about or that they are credible sources. I'm sure many of the people who posted on here have good reason for their opinion but that does not mean that is the norm or that its right.

Was my statement incorrect? Most people did agree with me. I even admitted that there is a possiblity that I may be wrong alltogether. If that's a high horse I think i'll stick with my broken down pony, i'll see more of the terrain.

Have a nice day.

Slan.

[KristenM]

Slannesh, Ontario Herper =Dave. It says his name at the bottom of every post now with this information yes, Scotty Allen agreed with Ont Herp AKA Dave. And yes the post I was talking about was Daves!
Again if you want to read my post you will see that I clearly stated "Not to say there is not good info on the net, or that things can't be learned on a site like this. I know I have gotten some great info on web sites abotu herps." So yeah I alreayd stated that things can be learned on the net.
In the last statement I made you missed the point, so I'll write it again. I was saying that just because people agree with you it doesn't mean its the norm. In order for you to know what norm is you would have to know how every person who has ever kept a ball python has fed it!
Steve and Lori can speak for them selves about what you said about them, but what I will say is I think you should read steves post again. Because from what I saw your name wasn't mentioned once. And it sounds to me like hes talking to everyone in general not just you! As for Lori I can say 100% that yes she is a keeper at the Toronto zoo, who works with reptiles. I know this because I worked at the Toronto zoo for a bit as well.

Sunrunner I think its good that you can appriciate what other people have to say! And can see some one elses point of view. Not to say you will feed your snake once a month, but you can understand that there may be a bit more to learn. I think its also awesome that you said that thing about keeping minds open to learn. I agree 100% I think also agree that no one can be right, its a matter of personal opinion, just agree to disagree! Everyone thinks what they are doing is best for the animal so leave it at that. If the animal is healthy then why change what you are doing?

[marisa]

I myself am a HUGE mewbie with ball pythons, but I would think with any captive snake whatever we can do to stimulate natural behaivours or mimic natural instincts would be a good thing when those things are beneficial to the snake or its body. Since wild ball pythons are known for long long periods of fasting regularly, I think in most cases feeding less would be far better than feeding more.

That's my opinion anyways.
Marisa

[Ontario_herper]

For the record this post is directed at Slennesh.

Before I type out anything else let me just say it is a sad and pathetic thing that you gather your information (and would go as far to source it) from the discovery channel. Do you have any idea how fake nature documentaries are? I do…. I’ve seen them being taped! Please do not use nature documentaries when you are debating something with me. It seriously makes me want to run to the washroom and vomit.

For the record I have numerous friends with 20++++ years experience with herps, especially snakes. These people would absolutely blow your mind (I know from first hand experience). The have forgotten more than you may ever hope to know about keeping captive snakes. It was a complete fluke that Steve happened to post at that particular time. If you feel differently then deal with it!

“I've been keeping herps in one form or another for almost 20 years. Seriously for the last 6 or 7.”

Is this more serious keeping you’ve done over the past 6-7 years the one ball pythons you’ve had for the same amount of time? Please feel free to expand…..

Your comments to Steve are pretty weak. Not sure there’s a lot that I can say about them. Other than they were really weak and lacked any real value.

Your comments to Lori showed a complete lack of intelligence.

“Iv'e done a lot of volunteering at the Calgary zoo while I still lived in Calgary, (which in case you are wondering involves feces more often than pretty much any job you could ever want)”

Wow what a profound statement. Can I ask what else you expected to do at the zoo? Animals rid themselves of bodily waste… were you not aware of that? Someone has to clean these nice gifts up. Would it not make sense that the people who care for the animals (see zookeeper) clean up after them. Hmmm I thought that would be common sense. Guess not???

I guess you’re back up on that horse again because that comment sure sounds like you think you’re too good to be cleaning animal poop. Who cleans your ball python at home? Do you hire a zookeeper to do it because you’re just to dam good?

You have insulted others for not sharing information. Can I ask exactly what information you have shared? That is of course, other than your lack of original thought and common sense.

The thing that gets me is the huge amount of ignorance you carry around with you. You’ve read some care sheets and you’ve kept one lonely ball python (correct me if I’m wrong), and oh god! You watched discovery channel. But do you have any idea what a ball python looks like when it’s fed only once a month? I know this because I’ve done it! I also know what a BP looks like when it’s been fed every 7-10 days. I’ve done it! So you see I have EXPERIENCED both sides of the argument. You’ve only had contact with one side. But because the care sheets on the net and the discovery channel told you to feed your snake every 7-10 days……. That’s all you know! So how can you come on here when you don’t know one side of the story? It’s simple, you can’t!!!

So unless you have something WORTH saying this conversation seems somewhat over?

[Slannesh]

Ontario herper:

I was going to let you have the last word but I obviously pissed you off with my last couple of posts and would like to clear up a few misconceptions that you tried to state about them.

Before I type out anything else let me just say it is a sad and pathetic thing that you gather your information (and would go as far to source it) from the discovery channel. Do you have any idea how fake nature documentaries are? I do…. I’ve seen them being taped! Please do not use nature documentaries when you are debating something with me. It seriously makes me want to run to the washroom and vomit.

I find it highly amusing that every time I mention a source of information you seem to think that i've stated it's the Holy Bible of snakekeeping. Caresheets DO have usefull information, Not all of them but enough that you can glean what you need to from them. Same with books, which you seem to conveniently forget that I read as well. I find the Discovery channel and The Learning Channel both to be very valuable information sources on all sorts of topics. I've seen some very good shows on herps. So please, vomit away. By the way, How many documentaries on Ball Pythons have you seen being taped? I'm curious how many trips to Pakistan and Afghanistan you've made? I've never seen a documentary being taped, I think it would be a very interesting experience.

It was a complete fluke that Steve happened to post at that particular time. If you feel differently then deal with it!

Yes, i'm sure it was.

Is this more serious keeping you’ve done over the past 6-7 years the one ball pythons you’ve had for the same amount of time? Please feel free to expand…..

I'd be happy to! What I meant was that i've kept various herps as pets for most of my life. Frogs and Salamanders when I was a child, Garter snakes and anoles as a teen and more recently my Ball Python and Leopard Geckos. Until I was in my early 20s for the most part they were just pets and I had a general interest in herps. Since then i've researched more thoroughly into the specific species I keep and am interested in, hence being more 'seriously' into the field, rather than just 'general herp knowledge' I've found information whereever I could get it. The net, books I own, other books at the library, even the dreaded documentary Clear enough?

Wow what a profound statement. Can I ask what else you expected to do at the zoo? Animals rid themselves of bodily waste… were you not aware of that? Someone has to clean these nice gifts up. Would it not make sense that the people who care for the animals (see zookeeper) clean up after them. Hmmm I thought that would be common sense. Guess not???

I did exactly what I expected I would be doing. Cleaning up animal cages. Obviously my attempt at humor was lost on you. No matter. *shocked* You mean animals have to defecate too?!?! I had NO idea! (That was sarcasm by the way, just in case it was too high brow for you again)

For the record, the zookeepers at the Calgary zoo don't do a whole lot of shoveling, that's the job for volunteers and apprentice zookeepers

I guess you’re back up on that horse again because that comment sure sounds like you think you’re too good to be cleaning animal poop. Who cleans your ball python at home? Do you hire a zookeeper to do it because you’re just to dam good?

LOL! Yes, I am too good to clean up animal feces. LOL. (sarcasm again BTW )
I assure you that no one but me cleans up after any of my herps, and I make quite sure that their environments are clean. I've cleaned up more feces than most people are likely to ever see in thier lifetime. And I was both happy to do it and proud of the experience and knowledge I was gaining because of it.

The thing that gets me is the huge amount of ignorance you carry around with you. You’ve read some care sheets and you’ve kept one lonely ball python (correct me if I’m wrong), and oh god! You watched discovery channel. But do you have any idea what a ball python looks like when it’s fed only once a month? I know this because I’ve done it!

Ignorance? Oooooook. I haven't read 'some' caresheets. I've read dozens, specifically about Ball pythons. I've likely also read all the same books you have, it's not like there are hundreds of them on the subject. I also have spoken to anyone I could find locally that has more experience than I do about Ball Python husbandry.

You are correct that I only keep one Ball Python. Same one i've always had and i'm fairly certain i'll have her for some decades to come. I don't have to underfeed my snake to know it's a bad idea. I've varied the space between feedings as well, i'm sure we all have at one point or another. I think 2 weeks was the maximum I ever went between offering food to her. I think that once a month is insufficent and telling a new BP keeper that feeding once a month or so is fine is just irresponsible. You certainly haven't done anything or offered any information in this entire thread that has changed my opinion on that subject.

I would like to take this opportunity to apologize to anyone who's bothered to read this far in this thread. More than once i've let myself fling mud and egg Ontario herper and his cronies on instead of just letting them have the last insulting word and letting this thread die. Sorry for that. I would also encourage anyone who is new to keeping Ball Pythons to read not only the many good caresheets available on the net, but to read any books on the subject as well. Probably the best source of information you can get is the direct experience of others. Join your local Herp society, get involved and learn from those who know more than you do and once you know something about it, pass that on to the next new guy/gal who comes along and wonders about keeping herps.

Thanks, and have a great day all. This should be my last post on this thread unless someone decides that they just have to get a few more insulting remarks in before letting it go

Slan.

[Cerastes]

Hi everyone! Lori Dunn here again. Slannesh seems to be interested in my position at the zoo - I work in the Americas pavilion and am a keeper there who specializes in reptiles. Since I know you will ask -as you seem to have so much time to delve into the minutia of people's lives ( including your own) - My past experience involves reptile keeping at the National Zoo in Washington D.C working for renowned herpetologists Bela Demeter and Trooper Walsh. I'm sure you will look them up just to make sure they are real and actually exist. Let me give you a teaser - Trooper was the first to breed komodo dragons in north america and a renowned Chondropython expert blah blah blah - you look it up. I have been trained at the Toronto Zoo by the now infamous Grant Ankenman - an expert in herpetoculture and breeder of snakes for well over 20 years. Yes I have seen my share animals dying from being overweight and developing subsequent health problems both in the private sector and at zoos, and I speak out against it whenever necessary. Thank you for your rundown on the fat content of certain nuts. I'll be sure to refer to it the next time I shove a handful into my face at a cocktail party. Unfortunately, I said seeds not nuts ( quick!! go google for the fat content of seeds!!). This wild rodent diet is still not nearly as fattening as the food that breeder rodents get. Oh but I forgot, according to your own herp website ball pythons eat lizards and other snakes (snicker ). Better consult a real book to find out that they actually feed mainly on a rodent called a gerboa which is similar to a gerbil. I guess you missed that in "all the dozens of caresheets, books and t.v shows that you've watched on snakes and ball pythons" For the others out there that are still confused, a healthy ADULT ball python should be fed appropriately sized mice or rats every two to four weeks. Generally, smaller more frequent meals for med to large boids is not as healthy a schedule as is a large meal once every few weeks to a month. There are books out there which may give evidence of this, but generally it is learned through years of experience in keeping snakes, and that info is passed down from the " old timers" to other budding herpers. Oh yeah , many of the old time herpers I have worked with would cringe at you keeping your ball python on astroturf - but hey that's a whole other topic! Oops! There I go stirring the pot again!! Enjoy!

[Slannesh]

Hey Lori, I owe you an apology. You did indeed say seeds instead of nuts. My bad.

I found it somewhat convenient that you and your partner just 'happened' across this topic no more than 24 hours after the post to Ontario herper that I would back down when someone with considerably more experience than either of us sounded off on the topic, so i'm sure you'll excuse my skepicism.

I will indeed look up the names you brought up, i'm interested in knowing more. I suppose I could google the fat content of seeds, but since most nuts ARE seeds, I think it's unnecessary

As to the astroturf, I haven't kept Shiva on that for several years. Since you've checked my website so closely i'm sure you'll notice the date on those pictures as being from May 99'. I've been using either Repti-bark or fir/orchid bark mulch for quite a while now. Since you brought it up however, what do you house your balls on? I know substrate is probably the single most debated topic for most herps.

The blurb on my page about Balls eating snakes and other lizards could be entirely false, Again it was information I got many years ago I do know that they don't eat domestic mice in the wild, which was the point I was trying to make.

[themangler]

I was at the "grocery" store getting rats what ?and where