Best starter monitor?

[markb]

Did you know that the collecting of, export of, import of, of V. exanthematicus and V. niloticus is almost identical in methodology, economics (which Laws rarely change), attitude towards in both Africa and North America (= a commodity) as the African Slave Trade 1600-1809?? Just food for thought....no animal, whether biped or quadraped should have a price on its head - but money is aim of all peoples, and also their evil....
cheers,
markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

Lisa, that was the best post that I have ever read from you! Economics is yer game!! You said exactly what I wanted to say, only 100 times more eloquently!!

[Jeff_Favelle]

I hear ya Mark. I hate wild caught animals. I do equate it with the most horrible of acts. I shudder when I think about it And seeing as no CB Savannas are available, I fail to see how they are a great 1st time monitor.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I ve had mine for maybe almost two months now and have seen more prolific nature than seen in beardies...

Being prolific and having an adequate nest and laying fertile eggs and being able to artificially hatch those eggs are two WAY DIFFERENT things. So what your saying is, you don't see how hard these things are to breed, yet you haven't hatched an egg yet? I'm not getting down on you or gloating man, but does that not sound weird to you? I mean, that's like me saying Blackheads aren't hard to breed, yet I have never owned, bred or hatched one.

People should talk from experience, and not speculation or heresay. If they were easy, then more than 5 people would have bred them in this country. They are expensive and a lot of people own them. If they are soooo easy, then there could be a LOT of people making a LOT of money. How do you explain that?

Right. Thank you.

[markb]

Hi Jeff and Lisa,

I have been keeping track of as many breedings of V. exanthematicus as I can for 20+ years now, and I recall I bred them in 1987, 1992 (a D.I.E. full term though), Reynolds (1992), Glades Herp (1991), Pierson (1993-4), Thakoordyal (2002), Nieves (1993), Reinshagen (1993), Roder & Horn (1994), and maybe I have some more reports on them, but not a whole lot of people I know of have bred these fantastic animals to-date.....
cheers,
markb

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's a whole lot more than I thought Mark!!

But, as you say, still a tiny dop in the hat compared to ow many are imported. And how many CB have EVER in Canada, vs the amount of wild caught? Like 10,000 wild caught for every CB? More?

[V.hb]

Iam not speaking from speculation, or anything. I dont see why you are so rude to everyone. You have a high and mighty attitude, you can deny all you want. But i see no reason for it.. I dont see a reason for anyone being negative. I mean look at my post before, just asking about ackie behavior, I figured you would post as you've kept them and bred them. You decided to analyze my post as if iam some sort of moron asking a pointless question. By that I mean, going into my "perfect temps" reference. You know what I meant, Iam pretty sure most people would. Iam not going to get into that again. I know what you paid for your ackies (roughly) probably close to what I paid for mine. so I see why you price yours the way you do. I just see absolutly no need to be rude to anyone that disagrees with you.. And unlike others I can back out of a conversation that is going nowhere. In reality, I was posting to see others oberservations of their ackies, out of the enjoyment of the animal.


No, iam not gloating that I have all the people skills here either, I certaintly do not. I just don't agree with your approach.

On a further note. The only way you will see anymore captive bred animals appear in the pet trade is by encouraging those who do own exantehmaticus, niltic's. albigs etc to breed them! Ive kept varanids for quite awhile now, I never purchase WC adults, only CH or CBB babies. All I see on many varanid forums is the overall discouragment from buying anything other than high end "dwarfs" many people supply and charge alot for. No this isnt a shot at what you charge either.

To date, I can count the people who have offered me good advice on varanids on ONE hand. thats pretty pathetic. Most would rather be rude and jump to conclusions, or just try and keep their high and mighty attitudes.

I hope i haven't offended anyone, I haven't tried to. This is all so rediculous. Thanks for reading.

[V.hb]

On a further note, No i do not have ackie eggs as of yet. I hope to very soon, as well as albigs, yes albigs. My 2 year old pair have been caught copulating and the female has been digging.
(thanks to Steeve B's advice)

I havent had my ackies long for them to even produce eggs, copulating and egg production are two different things, and I assure you my nesting medium is up to par. Thanks for your concerns.

[V.hb]

I keep adding stuff, my apologies....
On a FINAL note, I previously said Sav's are the best choice for a beginner. This statement, iam completely final on. My whole perspective on this is:
Purchase a CB animal, breed it. Thats fantastic!! however
I find alot more fun, and challenge in watching a CH monitor (preferably something larger than a dwarf) grow to its full potential and be secure enough to reproduce. No I haven't had any eggs from my albigs yet, but I have a good feeling it will happen soon (refer to above post) I have achieved eggs from my female exanthmaticus once however I failed to incubate them. You live and learn. Thats where all the fun is.

If i caused any commotion in this thread, iam sorry. I just wish the overall attitude with varanids would become more user friendly. In other words, before accusing one of purchasing WC animals (as we know how hard it is on their natural life cycles to remove females and farm them) offer advice to them, instead of telling them they should have purchased a dwarf........ Dwarfs are not what everyone looks for in a varanid. I Do agree they are easier to house, but in the long run, I personally find them more of a pain.
Thanks again. This is the last time il add to my above posts, i promise. haha
PS.
If you are so against people purchasing wild caught varanids start a petition to end pet stores from selling them instead of labelling those who do buy them as ignorant. I know for one if I purchase any CH animal I do it in hopes to breed it and supply captive animals to the pet trade.

[snakemann87]

I have had little experience with monitors which doesnt allow me much say I believe. But what I did experience with them was 2 little baby CB Savs. One one as nice as could be, the other.....err... a little B$TCH!!!! I will hopefully be getting back into them when I find out if Im moving for SURE. Thanks

[Bryce Masuk]

Snakeman I doubt you have USACB sav's I bet they are CH With monitiors its different then with anything else CB mean's farmed unless your talking about ackies or a species you cant get out of the wild anymore

[Linds]

As Bryce mentioned... CB doesn't necessarily mean captive BRED... it often symbolizes captive BORN aka captive hatched. This is where dealers and the like trick can you into thinking you are getting a captive bred baby

Steeve,
Thanks for the compliment

[Jeff_Favelle]

I am not speaking from speculation, or anything.

Are you sure? You specifically SAID that you haven't bred Ackies, yet you say they are easier to breed/more prolific (whatever that means) than Beardies. If that's not speculation on your part, I'll eat my hat. Recruitment rates for Ackies and Beardies WOULD be about equal (if you did your research), if monitor eggs were easy to hatch. Even the best of breeders kills an entire clutch of eggs. Not so with Beardie eggs.

I don't see why you are so rude to everyone. You have a high and mighty attitude, you can deny all you want. But I see no reason for it.. I don't see a reason for anyone being negative.

.

3 sentences all to say the same negative thing. Kind of hypocritical, wouldn't you say?

And when exactly was I rude? Please provide a specific sentence. I never raised my voice, I never slandered anyone, I never called anyone names or branded them with a bad characteristic. In fact, I NEVER take posts to a personal level. But for some reason you do. Why is that? Boredom? When someone disagrees with the all-powerful VHB, they are automatically arrogant and high and mighty? That's garbage. If there can be no discussion without you crying the blues, what's the point in having a discussion?

As for "analyzing" your post when you said that your monitor cage has "perfect" temperatures, well Kendrick replied to that one first and you didn't say a peep. Both Jon and I went through the wringer (him LONG before me) from the varanid gurus until we had it imprinted that there is NO SUCH THING AS A PERFECT TEMPERATURE FOR A MONITOR. Its a bad thing to say, especially when a new-bee can read it. And in case you haven't noticed, this board is FULL of them. So me pointing that out is not bad.
Check out this post by THE monitor guru: Maybe you should email him and tell him to shove it and that you have "perfect temps"??

Posted by FR on Tue - Jul 15 - 09:07am:

In Reply to: Temps and stuff posted by Jefe on Mon - Jul 14 - 11:27pm:

As you may know, I have said, use a range of temps, for 13 years now. It was published in both the popular mags, many years ago. I have said use temps slightly above and below what they need, then find ways to allow the use of them.
Why I said that is, the information has been out there for many years. Its availible for anyone who is interested and wants it.

I get the feeling, its more about humans wanting to prove themselves superior or some dang thing or just being plain bullheaded or lazy. Maybe, more like, I think this is right, and the animals suffer for it. For instance, there may be a huge need for reptile keeper pychologists. Something may be said like this, Sir(keeper person) you may be forcing these horrible conditions on these poor defenseless creatures because, all kinds of crap is being forced on you. Deep down, you know whats right, but are doing this to show you have power to control. Yea I know that is dumb, but I said it to again make you think. It may not be too far off. Because if there is no deep seeded reasons people do the things they do, then they must be just plain dumbarsses and cannot read or think or copy. Yea, I know the world is full of them.

I mean really, if you really wanted to breed monitors, all you have to do is copy someone who is(how hard can that be) Then figure out later how it works. Thats what most of the commerical breeders did. Frank

And unlike others I can back out of a conversation that is going nowhere

That's just it. Conversations don't HAVE to go no where. They can take tangents, they can digress, they can be jokes. All that's important, is that we are talking about monitors. Why is that so hard for you to grasp?

No, iam not gloating that I have all the people skills here either, I certaintly do not. I just don't agree with your approach.

No, you shouldn't gloat. If these are your people skills, I'd sure hate to see your petty, irrational, and vindictive skills.

Jesus H.

On a further note. The only way you will see anymore captive bred animals appear in the pet trade is by encouraging those who do own exantehmaticus, niltic's. albigs etc to breed them!

Unfortunately, most people that own these animals simply do not have the capabilities to do such a thing. They simply aren't there yet. Monitor breeding is brand new (relatively), and it isn't easy. And most people that have made the choice to buy those monitors that you listed, are not going to be breeders any time soon. Sad, but its the reality.

And that doesn't even take into consideration that its next to impossible to make a WC monitor "un-insane" from its capture and shipment. Ask the pros. They know what that's all about. CB niles, Savannas, waters etc etc won't happen in our lifetime.

[Jeff_Favelle]

I havent had my ackies long for them to even produce eggs, copulating and egg production are two different things, and I assure you my nesting medium is up to par. Thanks for your concerns.

1) Ackies can copulate, ovulate and lay eggs within 2 weeks. Its been done and documented. So to say that you haven't had them long enough for them to breed is a farce, unless you've only had them for a week. Monitors don't run around gravid like snakes (at least not Odatria from what I understand). They breed and are gravid in a short period of time.

Kendrick will know for sure, but I know people have had eggs and then fertile eggs laid 2 weeks RIGHT AFTER, so what does that tell us?

As for your nesting medium being "up to par", how do you know? They haven't laid eggs yet!!!! I don't understand how you can infer, speculate, and guess with such a straight face!!!! Its hilarious. Post that on varanus.net and see the repsonses you get. I'll do it for you actually. I'll post, "hey, I haven't got any eggs yet, but my nesting medium rocks!".

It'll be a hoot.

[Jeff_Favelle]

...and here's where it all falls apart folks:

If you are so against people purchasing wild caught varanids start a petition to end pet stores from selling them instead of labelling those who do buy them as ignorant.

Are you seriously chastizing me for supporting Captive Bred animals over Wild Caught??? You MUST be joking. I'm sorry we don't share the same views about capturing wild animals and putting them in cages (not really sorry). Did you read MarkB's post on the the wild caught thing? No? I'll repost it then.....

Did you know that the collecting of, export of, import of, of V. exanthematicus and V. niloticus is almost identical in methodology, economics (which Laws rarely change), attitude towards in both Africa and North America (= a commodity) as the African Slave Trade 1600-1809?? Just food for thought....no animal, whether biped or quadraped should have a price on its head - but money is aim of all peoples, and also their evil....
cheers,
markb

And you are raking me over the coals for saying that wild caught animals are not the preference? Wow. Please don't do glue before you log into Ssnakess. Seriously. I argue with a LOT of people on a LOT of issues, but I have never had anyone disagree with my stance on wild caught animals. And that's where this conversation ends. I fully realize that it wil be impossible for me to impart any shred of knowledge about these creatures from you. So I see no point in conversing anymore.

Toodles.