Keeping snakes without a hotspot

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

You miss one interesting benefit of lightbulbs. They output more IR-A than a che which outputs almost exclusively IR-C.

Studies show IR-A penetrates deeper into muscle so is more effective at warming reptiles - particularly important for dinural species who like to get up and on it in the day.

Using my method of heating (ambient room to 22c ish) I can use lightbulbs during the day and then off at night although for my snakes I'm currently using Che's. I may swap to bulbs though over time for the reason.

I have a deep hatred of heat mats and they would be ineffective in my vivs anyway give the depth of substrate.

Heat rocks regardless of modernity are not something I'd use. All the disadvantages of mats (little use in raising ambient temperature etc) with the added dangers already discussed.

Substrate depth is a challenge I had to overcome with my most recent setup and ended up going with a uvb bulb hood combined with a CHE.

I just finished it and I'm excited to post it later this weekend.

[TRD]

Bottom line; snakes need heat to be fully healthy (metabolic processes, immune system). Providing a cold blooded animal with only ambient temperature is not sufficient, they may survive at such temperature, but it suboptimal and can lead to long term problems. They need to be able to raise their temperatures to what they require, I see no reason not to provide that to them unless your electricity bill is more important than your animal's wellbeing. There is literally tons of info on why reptiles bask and thermoregulate, not sure why it is being questioned now. I think we are beyond that and actually venturing into not only providing the right basking temperatures, but also the right type and intensity of light.

Ps. A heat rock is still the same as it always was; a metal heat pipe in a epoxy "rock". If the device fails for whatever reason your reptile will burn for it as these devices have the potential to get insanely hot and are in direct contact with the reptile. That's why they are unsafe, regardless if you used one or several over many years without issues. It is not as if all will fail or all have a bad design, it is just more common than with other sources. If you like to use them, good for you, but don't expect empathy from any reptile owner in case you come home to a snake with 3rd degree burns over his body... that's all.

[Doug 351]

Well, I don't know about cheap, defective pet rocks. I'll have to admit, it's not the best thing to use, and I'm glad to see all the better alternatives being discussed now.

I should mention a few things about my heat rock. It wasn't one of the first generation ones. It wasn't cheap. It has a thermostat on the cord. It's a Zoo Med brand, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

I didn't get it for a snake, I got iy for a green iguana, that loved it. Used to sleep on it. I keep it turned down pretty low. A lot of times, I keep some substrate on top. (Never did with the iguana, they're too messy, just newspaper, and had to wash the rock a few times!)

Anyway, to kinda go back to what I touched on early in this thread, iguanas are tropical critters, he was on that rock all the time, my snake is a native, temperate critter, and rarely feels the need for extra heat.

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

[chairman]

Originally Posted by TRD

Bottom line; snakes need heat to be fully healthy (metabolic processes, immune system). Providing a cold blooded animal with only ambient temperature is not sufficient, they may survive at such temperature, but it suboptimal and can lead to long term problems. They need to be able to raise their temperatures to what they require, I see no reason not to provide that to them unless your electricity bill is more important than your animal's wellbeing. There is literally tons of info on why reptiles bask and thermoregulate, not sure why it is being questioned now. I think we are beyond that and actually venturing into not only providing the right basking temperatures, but also the right type and intensity of light.

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature. This, of course, assumes that snakes thermoregulate for the express purpose of maintaining a constant internal body temperature. If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

[dannybgoode]

If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

And this right here is the million dollar question. On the basis we simply don't know I'd rather err on the side they vary their body temperature (and bear in mind we may be looking at only a fraction of a degree maybe more) I'll give mine the choice.

*If* there were robust research to show all this moving around from warm to for was to maintain a set temperature I may reconsider. The difficulty then would be does every snake have the same requirement and that I doubt very much - even across species from a similar location.

[TRD]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

I'm in a temperate climate and measure ground temperatures of over 50C here in sunshine, so I doubt that (no, i'm not in the Netherlands but in CEE)

[dannybgoode]

Originally Posted by TRD

I'm in a temperate climate and measure ground temperatures of over 50C here in sunshine, so I doubt that (no, i'm not in the Netherlands but in CEE)

Exactly a point I made earlier in the thread. My t lepidus in even in his outdoor enclosure regularly gets a ground temp 35c+ when the air temp is only 23-25. As we hit the peak later this month and early August the ground temp will regularly exceed 40+. I'll do some regular measuring to monitor exactly what he is getting.

[TRD]

The only reason people don't give the right surface temperatures in captivity is because it's difficult and dangerous to provide such temps in a confined space. The space has to be quite a bit bigger than what is usually recommended on minimal size, and you need controllable ventilation and outside ambient temperature to keep temps inside to viv under control. It's far easier to give a lower temperature that they can use for a longer time instead of a true hotspot that they can use for 20 minutes. Captivity has it's limits in what can be reproduced in a practical sense.

[EL Ziggy]

Very informative thread. Lots of great points being made. Thanks for the lessons all!

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by chairman

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature.

Exactly, we're not talking ambient room temperature, typically those are much too cool for a reptile. You still have to maintain control over your the temperatures for the method to be effective.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Even with more stringent quality controls and safety their very design encourages a reptile to sit on or wrap round them which increases the chance of thermal blocking.

Anyway, I'm reluctant to comment further on this thread as it's been a really interesting debate and I don't want to pollute it and take too far off topic. With this in mind Doug perhaps start at new thread specifically on heat rocks and we can discuss there.

Posted my new setup in the colubrid forum Danny!

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Doug 351

LOL! I have one....it's about as hot as a lap dog... and no problems in years and years.

NOW....my point is...YES!!! They used to be crap....but!!!!! Before we even have a RIDICULOUS conversation on something that DOESN'T EXSIST...( heat rock danger)... We should start with something substantial, not outdated OPINIONS!

BTW: I don't see the need for a separate thread, (I thought this was about HEAT SOURCES!)

Sorry Doug but a single piece of anecdotal evidence will not work here. A single person texting in their car while driving isn't proof that it doesn't kill/cause accidents.

Originally Posted by Doug 351

Well, I don't know about cheap, defective pet rocks. I'll have to admit, it's not the best thing to use, and I'm glad to see all the better alternatives being discussed now.

I should mention a few things about my heat rock. It wasn't one of the first generation ones. It wasn't cheap. It has a thermostat on the cord. It's a Zoo Med brand, and they usually make pretty good stuff.

I didn't get it for a snake, I got iy for a green iguana, that loved it. Used to sleep on it. I keep it turned down pretty low. A lot of times, I keep some substrate on top. (Never did with the iguana, they're too messy, just newspaper, and had to wash the rock a few times!)

Anyway, to kinda go back to what I touched on early in this thread, iguanas are tropical critters, he was on that rock all the time, my snake is a native, temperate critter, and rarely feels the need for extra heat.

So...it's totally possible to house temperate snakes without heat sources, but probably better to have them should they want them. Tropical snakes, it's probably a must, and the best heat source!

You say you don't want oudated opinions but this seems to be the product you're talking about and Zoo Med has updated their site/product information since you last looked (if you ever did).

https://zoomed.com/repticare-rock-heater/

I'll break down the points:

1. Not to be used a sole heat source for tropical animals. (Which you did and is your current argument)

2. Do not bury it in anything. (You did this too.)

3. Has a rheostat not a thermostat built in. (Different tools and the rheostat means you have to monitor the temperature of it constantly and adjust the dial.)

4. If your animal is lying on it constantly it's too cold. (Your iguana did this according to you which means your animal was living in substandard care. I know you didn't know about it and I would guess would have changed had you known) However, the most important about this is you didn't try to learn or look for new information. You have an outdated opinion which in an above quote you railed against anyone else having.

5. This essentially is an expensive piece of decor. Sssnakess already suggested it's what they are good for.

[TRD]

Originally Posted by chairman

I believe that the goal is not to keep the snakes at "ambient" temperatures, but at the snake's ideal body temperature. This, of course, assumes that snakes thermoregulate for the express purpose of maintaining a constant internal body temperature. If snakes truly do attempt to change their body temperature for some purpose, say deliberately adjusting their metabolism (as some varanids have been found to do), then there is no ideal body temperature and failing to provide a gradient is suboptimal.

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

[chairman]

Originally Posted by TRD

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

It may be true that a single temperature approach is only beneficial to the people that keep snakes; it could be, as you suggest, bad for the snakes.

But just because an animal exhibits a behavior in the wild or experiences a stimuli in the wild doesn't mean that our captives benefit from the experience. Most wild snakes that I find have battle scars; I'm not going to expose my captives to a bird or cat to let it experience surviving a predator. Wild snakes experience extreme droughts that push the snakes to the brink of death (and sometimes over the brink); I'm not going to deprive my snakes of water or humidity.

You have certainly not advocated for mistreating snakes because nature mistreated them. I'm not suggesting that. What I am suggesting is that maybe thermoregulation is a response to a hostile environment and that some species may benefit from living in one stable temperature.

The theory is certainly testable in a humane manner. Set up snakes in standard habitats and keep a thermal camera focused on the cages 24 hours a day for weeks or months. See what happens with the body temperature of the snakes. Are they attempting to replicate homeostasis or do they vary their temperatures on purpose?

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by TRD

If you have an animal that controls his internal processes by thermoregulating, providing a constant temperature could just as well place his body in an overdrive mode, though snakes also have protection against extreme heat and can go dormant under that condition similarly to being too cold.

We know these animals yhermoregulate in the wild, I see no reason why we should force something else upon them simply because we can.

That's my opinion on the matter

A snake doesn't WANT to thermoregulate, a snake HAS to thermoregulate. I think that the amount of breeders using this method and the sheer number of animals that have been raised with controlled ambient temperatures proves, at least to me that a snake doesn't need to thermoregulate.

Thermoregulation is something that keepers force on their snakes would be my counter point to your last statement. The keeper is in control of everything. Literally every aspect of their care is forced upon them by us.