Your view of the reptile hobby

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Fish tanks for ball pythons are better?

Poor husbandry and the use of tubs are 2 different things. I don't know what you keep and really I don't care if the answer is unicorns. You will never convince me that well sized tubs are detrimental to husbandry.

Well sized tubs are fine. Housing a ton of snakes in undersized tubs is a different story.

Keeping reptiles is a bit selfish, but that doesn't excuse extraordinarily selfish or neglectful behavior. We aren't hypocrites for calling out those who collect animals obsessively or don't care about providing them will a decent enclosure. It's called common sense.

Honestly, it seems like you're taking up a perspective of moral relativism just to be a contrarian.

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

This thread is a pathetic excuse for you people to pat yourselves on your back like a dog who learned to scratch it's own belly.

1) want to see "different" animals at shows? Invest YOUR time and YOUR money and make it happen instead of passing the buck.

2) the person advertising 'breeding' plans today are selling their animals tomorrow. So relax.

3) no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

Lori OUT! <drops microphone>

^^^^^
NO where does she say small containers...

what she's saying is...

it don't matter if we are keeping them in the CORRECT SIZED tubs,vivariums,enclosures,or massive rooms...

there's NOTHING natural or right about keeping snakes in captivity

Originally Posted by psychocircus

So it doesn't matter if an animal is in a small container or a large enclosure because "we're all those people" ?

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

Yep! We're ALL selfish people. If we really cared more about the animals than we do about having something cool this hobby wouldn't exist. We wouldn't have zoos, or SeaWorld.

This hobby as others which keep exotics in captivity be it snakes or llamas is the exact same.

again i agree.....

there's nothing natural about keeping wild animals in enclosures

anyone who keeps snakes is doing it for their own personal/selfish reasons,with the exception of people doing it for release back into the wild for re population



cheers shaun
cheers shaun

[Mikoh4792]

So let's just consider these statements for a second.

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

there's NOTHING natural or right about keeping snakes in captivity

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

no matter if you keep them in tubs or massive rooms nothing is quite like being free so stop with the elitist bullpoop of "I don't use bins I'm not one of those evil hoarding people." We're ALL those people so stuff it.

I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

Well sized tubs are fine. Housing a ton of snakes in undersized tubs is a different story.

Keeping reptiles is a bit selfish, but that doesn't excuse extraordinarily selfish or neglectful behavior. We aren't hypocrites for calling out those who collect animals obsessively or don't care about providing them will a decent enclosure. It's called common sense.

Honestly, it seems like you're taking up a perspective of moral relativism just to be a contrarian.

Listen to my mellifluously, competent monologue pigeon.... (see I know big words too!)

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

So let's just consider these statements for a second.





I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

No. Because at the end of the day we are greedy, self-absorbed prepubescents with God complexes. We will convince ourselves that we are using our animals for good. For education, conservation, passion, love, money. we turn the snake lights out and tuck ourselves into bed telling ourselves that we do a great thing. That our Hobby is a great thing.

and when we arent collecting and keeping them in appropriate sized boxes we're wiping out their wild populations and overtaking their habitats.

LAWS cant stop people, what makes you think morals will?

[psychocircus]

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

^^^^^
NO where does she say small containers...


cheers shaun

but that's the issue at hand in most of the complaints...
so yes it was implied

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

No. Because at the end of the day we are greedy, self-absorbed prepubescents with God complexes. We will convince ourselves that we are using our animals for good. For education, conservation, passion, love, money. we turn the snake lights out and tuck ourselves into bed telling ourselves that we do a great thing. That our Hobby is a great thing.

and when we arent collecting and keeping them in appropriate sized boxes we're wiping out their wild populations and overtaking their habitats.

LAWS cant stop people, what makes you think morals will?

How can you lump everyone into one group? Not everyone is a murderer, theif....etc even though there are people who kill and steal. Just like not everyone is greedy.

With that mindset should humans not even try to progress?(In anyway.... in terms of education, slavery, war....etc).

Sorry for broadening the topic to that^ but I guess in the end it comes down to what you generally believe about the world.

[psychocircus]

I will say this. I agree that some people need to step off their high horse and stop being elitists when it comes to animal care.
However, I don't think there is a real argument that some of the husbandry we witness in this hobby is atrocious. I don't always blame the individual. A lot of pet stores give terrible advice and there are also a lot of bad care sheets out there.
That being said, yes there is an obvious difference between an undersized fishtank/tub or a room sized enclosure. I can't see how that can be argued.

[CosmicOwl]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

So let's just consider these statements for a second.





I'm going to be asking this neutrally, just want to know what you guys think.

Should we not keep reptiles anymore? If we know that this is not right, why don't we make it right by not keeping these reptiles anymore? Shouldn't we progress(by losing our selfishness) by doing what's "right" for the animal?

I think keeping captive bred animals in captivity is morally neutral. I don't think there is any harm in it if you're keeping the animal in a reasonably sized enclosure and providing them with the food and care that they need. If wild reptiles could crawl inside of a box and be kept warm and fed, they would. It beats having to roam, hunt for prey and avoid predators.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by CosmicOwl

I think keeping captive bred animals in captivity is morally neutral. I don't think there is any harm in it if you're keeping the animal in a reasonably sized enclosure and providing them with the food and care that they need. If wild reptiles could crawl inside of a box and be kept warm and fed, they would. It beats having to roam, hunt for prey and avoid predators.

And here we have a justification.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

And here we have a justification.

It's not a justification. It's an assertion followed by a justification(latter part of his post).

Would you disagree with his post? If so why is keeping reptiles not neutral?

[KORBIN5895]

If I could change on thing about the hobby I would want everyone to buy from me and only me.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

If I could change on thing about the hobby I would want everyone to buy from me and only me.

Wouldn't that be great

[LadyWraith]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

What is your view on the reptile hobby as of now?

From my own personal experience, I view the hobby as divided into categories:
1. Are the individuals that have done no independent research and use husbandry that is decades old that they acquired from Uncle Jim Bob that owned a free-roam Burm back in the early 80s. These are the animals you see for sale on CL. Most of the people in my area fall into this category.
2. Are the joe blows that purchase from pet stores and follow their advice. These people end up here and other forums looking for fixes to inappropriate husbandry.
3. Informed owners that have done research and understand proper husbandry.
4. Small scale breeders that really enjoy the hobby itself
5. Big time breeders.

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

What are some changes that would make it "better" in your opinion?

Education, period. Get the some 90% of reptile owners that acquire their animals through pet stores more informed about their animals. Most of these people have good intentions and buy from the pet store cause it's a PET store. A majority are probably not even aware there is a "hobby" per se. I know I didn't before becoming informed. These people would be more than willing to provide proper husbandry if educated. They want happy, healthy animals but have just fallen into the pit that is the pet trade.

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

In what direction would you like to see this hobby go?

One of greater societal understanding. It gets tiring answering the same questions from the general public "Do your snakes sleep in your bed?" "How do your snakes and dog get along?", when people seem to think we keep them like dogs... free roaming the house etc etc. It comes down to the fear of the unknown about our world. And it's not exactly painted in the best light by the media.

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by Mikoh4792

It's not a justification. It's an assertion followed by a justification(latter part of his post).

Would you disagree with his post? If so why is keeping reptiles not neutral?

The idea of captive bred is a novelty. Just because it comes from a breeder and not the wild doesn't morally neutralize the act of keeping it. Its still an exotic animal.

So yes its a justification. Its using semantics to make a morally reprehensible act acceptable.