What do you think of hybrids?

[LadyWraith]

I think what's trying to be conveyed about hybrids hurting the hobby is that when you start mixing already regulated species like burms with mostly non-regulated species like BPs, what would be the legal status of that mixed animal since technically some of the genetics are regulated. Also, lawmakers may start targeting non-regulated species in an attempt to dispose of the hybrid possibility as a loophole. This is how I think of it. Kinda like the law condemning "pitbull type dogs" in an attempt to wipe out even the pitbull mixed breeds.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by LadyWraith

I think what's trying to be conveyed about hybrids hurting the hobby is that when you start mixing already regulated species like burms with mostly non-regulated species like BPs, what would be the legal status of that mixed animal since technically some of the genetics are regulated. Also, lawmakers may start targeting non-regulated species in an attempt to dispose of the hybrid possibility as a loophole. This is how I think of it. Kinda like the law condemning "pitbull type dogs" in an attempt to wipe out even the pitbull mixed breeds.

So I guess another question that should be asked is what do you guys think about the regulation laws?

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

the law that you mentioned is about conservation - if you have more to add to it, then tell me about, saying you are wrong because you are wrong without any explanation is pointless. what has the conservation law you mentioned got to do with hybrids in captivity?

You think you're smart but your words prove your thoughts wrong. Go do some research then we can have a discussion. I don't waste my time trying to educate lazy people.

@Mikoh

I think the regulations are a good thing as I see way too many people that aren't capable of having such large species getting them and treating them terribly. Heck, we have members here that have them and really aren't qualified.

[formica]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

So I guess another question that should be asked is what do you guys think about the regulation laws?

this is the question which I think people are trying to answer, but wasnt actually asked

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

You think you're smart but your words prove your thoughts wrong. Go do some research then we can have a discussion. I don't waste my time trying to educate lazy people.

LOL get over yourself.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

this is the question which I think people are trying to answer, but wasnt actually asked



LOL get over yourself.

Let's make a deal. I will stop pointing out your lack of knowledge if you stop pretending you know more than you do and admit your ignorance.

[KORBIN5895]

Here is a heart warming story that supports how I feel about the bans.

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/gener...er-levels.html

[formica]

got a better solution, i'll just put you on ignore.

[KORBIN5895]

Originally Posted by formica

got a better solution, i'll just put you on ignore.

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Poor muffin is angry.... this'll be fun.

[StudentoReptile]

Here are my thoughts...

1.) in response to the question of natural vs unnatural, or evolution vs artificial selection, etc: we can have this debate all year long, but keeping snakes in glass boxes and plastic bins is NOT natural. The snakes living in their own habitat is. A black rat snake breeding with a grey ratsnake in the wild is called an INTERGRADE. Specifically, an intergrade, by definition, is a natural cross between subspecies. This happens with kingsnakes, box turtles, etc. It "occasionally" happens between 2 species, and can be labeled as a natural-occuring hybrid, such as a northern water snake crossing with a brown water, but this is rare. Putting a burmese python with a ball is NOT natural in any form (i'll cover the ethics later) but no one can make the argument that this is natural.

When it comes to evolution, one must understand that these species have all evolved into to fit into their specific ecological niches. For example, why do we have 7 different species of Nerodia (water snakes) in Alabama, instead of just one? They all achieve different sizes, have different coloration/pattern, occupy in different habitats, and/or may have differences in their diet. Obviously, there is a reason for this; evolution had this genus split into so any species for a reason. Making hybrids of them all completely defeats the purpose of ecological diversity; i.e. making a hybrid doesn't make a better snake, because that screws with whatever ecological role that animal provides.

2.) "Those who create hybrids just do it for the heck of it" - Again, let's look at why some hybrids are created in captivity. Comparing herps to other animal hybrids is not fair. For the most part, we hybridize livestock and poultry, etc. for applicable purposes (and remember these are domesticated animals I'm talking about, and herps are not domesticated). Ex: mules are bred from horses & donkeys to create a better working animal. We cross chickens to make some with bigger eggs or more meat, etc. - In contrast, why do we hybridize reptiles? These are not agricultural beasts that we eat, or use to farm, use for service animals, etc. We're talking "pets," creatures we keep predominantly for our own enjoyment. Thus, we DO breed hybrids for superficial reasons: just to make a "cooler-looking" mutation, just to see if it can be done, and/or to make money. Using the argument that it is "in the name of science," is not accurate because of the already described ecological issues. It is purely for the pet industry; something could be said for trying to make a "better" pet snake or lizard or whatever by crossing this with that, but I've yet to see a hybrid that really fits that bill. i.e. better pet for whom? Of all the snake species kept in the hobby (and their morphs), there isn't any pure species that can't appeal to a person that we have to breed two species that don't ever belong together to create the "perfect pet?"

3.) in response to whether burmball hybrids fall under the same regulations as pure burms: yes, both with most state laws and the federal rule from last year, any hybrid of the species in question is under the same law. Thus, you cannot transport hybrids of burms across state lines, just as you could not with yellow anaconda hybrids or Afrock hybrids.

4) Back to terms of conservation --- something also must be said about preserving localities. BCI is one such example. Yes, Hog Islands and Columbian boas are the same subspecies, but are very different. Lots of people don't give a flying crap and breed the two together indiscrimantly; so there's lots of hog/columbian crosses out there, and without paperwork from a reputable source, many times, you don't know what you have. People keep doing, it just encourages more of the same, and over time, it will get more difficult to find a pure specimen of one or the other. The same can be said for many species.

5) the parallels of the morph market --- much of what I have said can apply to mutations as well. Our hobby is very "morph" driven; if there are no known mutations to prove out, most people could care less about keeping the species. I'm sorry if I'm stepping on toes, but it all comes down to money. Those who think otherwise, ask yourself the question that if you love ______ (insert species of choice) so much, would you really keep a roomful of all normal genotypes of that species? I don't think many people would keep 50-100 normal ball pythons in their basement or whatever just because they like BPs so much. I'm not judging or anything, I'm just being real. Mutations are worth more money than normals, and that is the foundation of the contemporary herp hobby. --- People make the similar argument that "well, base morphs, like albinos were found in the wild, so they're natural, too!" Yes and no; yes, they were found in the wild, but what's the ratio of albinos to normals, something like 100,000 to 1? Remember, albinism is an ABERRATION, an anomaly of the natural thing. Albinos dno't survive in the wild for obvious reasons; it goes back to evolution. If nature wanted pink/white snakes to survive. it would be producing more of them. It doesn't.
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I'm not necessarily against hybrids or mutations, but we got to start looking at the big picture, and conserving the pure stuff.

[KORBIN5895]

I like what you said SOR. That helps put a lot into perspective.

On a side note I have 6 boas and four pythons. All of my snakes are a commodity to me but one. Her name is Gabby and she is a normal bci and she will be with me no matter what. All of my other boas are a triple gene morphs save for my female albino het snow. Why do I keep them? Because of the value of the off spring.