ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[formica]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

I agree in so far as any changes made must be within the enviromental expectations/needs of the animal - can assure you i do not have zero experience at dealing with terran or subterran enclosures, i said previously, and experimentation is infact the only way to keep pushing forward human knowledge and understanding - as long as it is done with a reasonable assessment of the requirements to the animal, I'm not talking about testing cosmetics here!

[BeardedDee]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!

I'm pretty sure it was FR stated the same thing on Vnet in recent months. He reported separate groups of Kimberleys like varanus_mad described.

[franks]

Originally Posted by formica

Physiological changea from dormancy dont occour over night, so to speak, cool dormancy at night def iant the same thing

Btw i have no experience with Savs, but 20 years controlling subterran and terran enclosures within very tight margins; im not jumping into this blind despite being a newbie to Savs. I feel the dry season peroid has been overlooked in the current 'formula', and hopefully the fact i am talking to experienced keepers now shows you this is not something i am taking lightly!

Again, no disrespect intended at all, but you do not have experience with savs... yet. Just the fact that you did not know a female could be egg-bound without sexual activity could have been dangerous. I will reiterate how I really like how you think outside of the box, and wish more monitor keepers would, but I think you should leave the tinkering with "the system" until you get some experience and knowledge under your belt regarding the animal that is in your care. In no way do I mean this to come across as arrogant, I myself have only one and a half years with a monitor and consider myself a novice regarding them. The system in place can be improved, but [B]it does work[B]. The issue regarding the ill-fate of bosc monitors is due to the fact that people do not keep them in this manner. Just yesterday I saw an add on craigslist for a monitor including its enclosure for $200. It was 17" long and in a 20 gallon fish tank.

You should really check out Daniel Bennett's book. If nothing else, it will enlighten you to some facts and research about these animals from the man who discovered them. Most of what you read on the internet is reiteration of his discoveries. Worth the $5 and the read.

Edit: *them- meaning the facts

[mdfmonitor]

Our monitors usually form a collection, which means we usually have a routine, we like to train them to be handable & fit in with our lives in the boxes we give them.

So we may watch them at certain times in the day (unknowingly) & feed them at the same time each sunday etc or because we finish at 3.00 on a sunday, or after we come in off nights etc.

In the wild they build their routine around the resources that are available, they'll know where the best tree is with a humidity of 80% in a hollow & with a temp of 26c inside etc, they know where the best juicy insects might be, it will not be all left to chance most times of the year!!

In return for staying with us we give them a nice big box!! well sometimes

One thing that always sticks in my mind that FR said keep it simple & useable.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by mdfmonitor

One thing that always sticks in my mind that FR said keep it simple & useable.

and I agree with that philosophy.

Provide the basics, deep diggable soil, lots of ample heat (within reason, a 150 degree basking spot is not going to hurt a thing, as long as the cool end can be around 80.)

keep the soil humid and let the animal chose where it wants to be.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by BeardedDee

I'm pretty sure it was FR stated the same thing on Vnet in recent months. He reported separate groups of Kimberleys like varanus_mad described.

Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading!

[formica]

I dont think that providing an artifical burrow, is any more of an extreme change to their natural enviroment, than providing 365 days a year of rainy season conditions, to be honest!

let me be clear - I am not talking about moving him/her into an alien environment; it will have options, based on everything I know, I will provide the best possible options and it can make its choices, and I can learn in the process.

to be honest, I am also finding it slightly insulting, that people who refuse to entertain the idea that dormancy in this species is important, then suggest that their way, is the only way to do it.

I do very much value all your experiences as monitor keepers with significantly more experience than me on this particular creature; that said, I think i'm being given a little less credit than I deserve, its not like I'm putting him in a cardboard box and feeding him turkeys is it?

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading!

only DNA testing would prove conclusivly, as not seeing something happen, doesnt mean it doesnt happen, anything else is speculation tbh

[varanus_mad]

Because we've seen other ways of doing things our way is tried and tested it works I don't get the idea behind trying to rewrite Bosc husbandry.

Dominancy is mentioned in a few pieces of literature however does every Bosc do this do they have to do so? The evidence suggest no they don't have to aestivate.

The humid box idea is limiting its a smaller controlled environment... Vs a whole cage of dirt...

Ill leave it there as to be honest like the uv debate ill stick with what I know works until proven otherwise.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by formica

to be honest, I am also finding it slightly insulting, that people who refuse to entertain the idea that dormancy in this species is important, then suggest that their way, is the only way to do it.

What exactly do you want credit for, you`ve bought a animal but really have little idea of how to care for it properly? Their health suffers from day one, ALL the necessary conditions should have been in place (tested) before getting the animal, clearly that was not done.
Looking at the current setup, I`m not too impressed in spite of the other members "thumbs up", but feel it may be a complete waste of time and energy to go into any more detail....
I do wish you and the monitor all the best.

[formica]

Show me the evidence that Savs do not need dormancy, and I'll accept it, show me the evidence that a Sav needs to dig a burrow to be healthy, and I'll accept it.

Evidence I have seen so far:

Savs aestivate during dry seasons, every year of their lives, and therefore their physiology has evolved to do that - denying them this part of their life seems odd, to say the least.

Savs do not just make their own burrows, they steal them, they use old burrows from other animals, they use small caves and dead trees, they are found all over the place, not just in their own dug burrows.

Lots of assumptions are being made here about what I am trying to do, despite the fact that I've already said that it will have the option of a hide, or digging, and yet this thread just seems to become filled with more and more arrogance, quite frankly.

As for my 'credit'; I have had many lizards, snakes, amphibians and insect colonies thru my life, all have thrived, because I researched and researched and researched, some of which required FAR more controlled environments than a Savanna lizard needs, even if they needed less space. You ever try controlling the humidity and tempreture inside a leaf cutter ants nest? most people fail within months if not days to keep their queen alive, I kept my colony alive for 5 years before my neighbour let off a bug bomb and wiped out all my colonies of ants, from all over the world, requiring many diffrent types of enviroment, from hot desert ants requiring soaring heat on the surface and cool humid nests below, to jungle poneras, to european and american ants that required hibernating every year for 3-5months at a time, otherwise they fail, to arboreal species which require perfect humidity and tempretures to even build a nest. My reptile list is not as extensive, but i understand enviromental controls, and that is the key. So, yes, I do deserve a bit of credit for having a reasonable understanding of how and why an enviroment needs to be suited to the animal that lives in it, and how to provide that enviroment, across the spectrum of the animal kingdom.

The only diffrence is scale, and if I can find better ways to provide a good enviroment for my Sav then I'm gona damn well do it; and for the last time; HE WILL HAVE PLENTY OF SPACE TO DIG A BURROW should my artificial offering not be to his liking. how many times to I have to write that?


As for your cheap shot about my Hatchling setup, whatever.

[BeardedDee]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, Frank Retes has a great deal of knowledge and experience, when he speaks I listen and usually learn something, but he`s visited my country a handful of times for a few short weeks. To say that during those short periods of time he observed two separate populations of Kimberley rock monitors that didn`t interbreed, one living in the trees the other in the rocks in the same area seems a little far fetched (he didn`t observe them "breeding" with each other in that short of a time surely doesn`t mean much)?
Many species that are described as being "tree dwellers", "ground dwellers" etc, quite often use parts of their environment they are not "supposed" to do, it`s very common.
I`d like to see some film or a published article confirming this, it would be extremely interesting viewing/reading!

Put in that context, I get what your saying. "Kimberley monitors breaking the rules"
@ formica - build your hide by all means, as long as it doesn't detract or interfere in the monitors ability to make a "home" within the soil you provide. I don't know if that distinction has been lost here...homes and hides.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

Show me the evidence that Savs do not need dormancy, and I'll accept it, show me the evidence that a Sav needs to dig a burrow to be healthy, and I'll accept it.

The 100s of savs i see every year dieing from gout because they havent had the option to burrow... The evidence enough for you?

Show me the evidence they do need to... I know of a few 10yr + savs who have never aestivated and act now like they did in there early years

Evidence I have seen so far:

Savs aestivate during dry seasons, every year of their lives, and therefore their physiology has evolved to do that - denying them this part of their life seems odd, to say the least.

Savs do not just make their own burrows, they steal them, they use old burrows from other animals, they use small caves and dead trees, they are found all over the place, not just in their own dug burrows.

Lots of assumptions are being made here about what I am trying to do, despite the fact that I've already said that it will have the option of a hide, or digging, and yet this thread just seems to become filled with more and more arrogance, quite frankly.

As for my 'credit'; I have had many lizards, snakes, amphibians and insect colonies thru my life, all have thrived, because I researched and researched and researched, some of which required FAR more controlled environments than a Savanna lizard needs, even if they needed less space. You ever try controlling the humidity and tempreture inside a leaf cutter ants nest? most people fail within months if not days to keep their queen alive, I kept my colony alive for 5 years before my neighbour let off a bug bomb and wiped out all my colonies of ants, from all over the world, requiring many diffrent types of enviroment, from hot desert ants requiring soaring heat on the surface and cool humid nests below, to jungle poneras, to european and american ants that required hibernating every year for 3-5months at a time, otherwise they fail, to arboreal species which require perfect humidity and tempretures to even build a nest. My reptile list is not as extensive, but i understand enviromental controls, and that is the key. So, yes, I do deserve a bit of credit for having a reasonable understanding of how and why an enviroment needs to be suited to the animal that lives in it, and how to provide that enviroment, across the spectrum of the animal kingdom.

The only diffrence is scale, and if I can find better ways to provide a good enviroment for my Sav then I'm gona damn well do it; and for the last time; HE WILL HAVE PLENTY OF SPACE TO DIG A BURROW should my artificial offering not be to his liking. how many times to I have to write that?


As for your cheap shot about my Hatchling setup, whatever.

how often do you have to add water to that little viv to keep the humidity stable? If your doing it daily its to often and its not acheiving its goal which is to prevent low-level dehydration in your wee sav.

and be honest its not really got enough dirt in there for it to dig in...

My references to aestivation are from a few older sources i cant find any references to it in the newer stuff?

[formica]

I havent had to add water to the vivarium to increase the humidity at all, I dont expect to for some time, stable at around 75-80%, 70% for a little while after I have to open up and change his water or add food; despite having a 60C+ basking spot, ambient temps around 30-33C, and a tempreture gradient down to 24C although I dont have experience keeping Savs, as I have said, i do have experience and understand how to stablise enclosures for all kinds of enviroments

He has plenty of options for humid places to sleep, including a burrow in his soil, the soil has large pieces of drift wood and moss above it to keep it moist underneath, inside his burrow humidity upto 100% inside and a temp of ~22C.

I do understand that this setup is only useful to him as a young hatchling; and I do understand the importance of good enviromental controls for them; which is why i am ''over thinking'' every aspect of his final enclosure before I build it; which infact will start next week, my plan is to have the setup stabilized for 2 months, before transferring him to it...that said, he will be given the option of when he wants to move, via a tube between the enclosures when the time is right


ps. please dont carry on judging me for trying to improve on the current designs for Savs, any choices I make will involved carefull monitoring at all stages; at no point will he be left with a dry tank, no matter what design features I utilize

[varanus_mad]

Ah think weve reached an impass there the thing is i dont think your improving on it anyway ill watch your approach with interest.


ATB Shane.

[formica]

i fully understand everyones concerns for the welfare of my Sav; shame this turned more heated than I had hoped, I still have questions and I'd value your answers


Do Sav's seal up their burrows at night after they enter?

Do they have more than one entrance/exit at a time? or just one?

According to a few things I've read, Sav's are more active in the cooler times of day, retreating to their burrows once the mid-day sun kicks in, and remerging later in the day when its cooled a bit; would it perhaps be beneficial to continue to provide lots of lighting some time after the main heating lights have gone off, say for 1-2hrs after the heat lamps and UVA goes off, this may induce some more natural behaviour in them?

My Sav is active hunting all day, then I guess 8-9hrs after the heat has switched on, he goes to his burrow and thats it until the next day; the current heating setup I have is not particuly natural, light should still be fairly bright long after the heat of the sun has died down a few degrees