bad reaction to my snake's meds??? help!!! - Page 5

Wolfus_305 · 02-14-12, 03:43 PM

Wow, that's really fascinating, I never knew any of that thanks for explaining it

insignia100 · 02-14-12, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will0W783

Wolfus, the renal portal system is not for survival, it's just a more primitive arterial/venous system.
Reptiles have a 3-chambered heart, instead of 4 chambers like we mammals do. Deoxygenated blood (that has gone through the body) flows in from either side (2 ventricles) and is reoxygenated. However, because there is only one atrium (exit chamber) in the heart, the deoxygenated blood from one side gets mixed in with the reoxygenated blood from the other side of the heart....thus their system is much less efficient.
To help cope with this less efficient system and the weaker heart muscles, the blood goes through the entire body once before going back to the heart. In mammals, blood is sent from the lower body up to the heart, to the upper body back to the heart, etc. Our blood will have gone through our entire body before flowing through the kidneys.

In a reptile, any blood caudal to the heart is on its way to the kidneys and any medicine given in an area caudal (tail) to the heart will be filtered out of the blood before it gets through the body.

You've got that reversed. The snake heart has 2 atria and a ventricle (like with architecture, the atrium is an "entrance hall"). The blood from the body flows from the body into the right atrium, or from the lungs into the left atrium. The atria pump the blood into the single ventricle and out to either the body or the lungs.

I'm really confused as to what you are trying to say regarding the difference in renal blood flow between snakes and mammals. In snakes, all the blood from the tail passes through the kidneys before returning to the heart. The kidney, like the liver (hepatic portal system) should have 3 main vessels associated with it: renal vein, renal artery, and renal portal vein. Blood from the head does not pass through the kidneys, and blood from the tail doesn't necessarily have to pass through the kidneys.

RandyRhoads · 02-14-12, 05:51 PM

Thanks for clearing that up. I was so confused about blood entering ventricles and leaving through atria.

insignia100 · 02-14-12, 05:55 PM

Honestly, I couldn't keep it straight until they drilled it into us in anatomy lab.

beardeds4life · 02-14-12, 06:09 PM

i two thought that it was bad that they were giving meds in the back but decided not to say anything because i have 0 snake experience

Will0W783 · 02-14-12, 06:17 PM

Haha, thanks Insignia- I get the atria/ventricles confused sometimes. I am not an expert on exactly how it works.

Here are a few links on renal portal system to clear it up- they can explain it FAR better than my half-correct attempt...lol.
Portal System

This is the best one I found Renal Portal System - Page 1

Will0W783 · 02-14-12, 06:19 PM

Quote:

In animals, the movement of blood through the body is organized into a system of arteries, which carry blood away from the heart, and veins, which carry it to the heart. A portal system is really a subunit, of sorts, within the circulatory system. A "portal system" may be defined as a vein that has a network of capillaries at either end. (Capillaries are the smallest blood vessels.)

In reptiles, a renal (kidney) portal system exists. From the heart, blood moves through the aorta, the largest artery in the body. The paired kidney arteries branch out from the aorta and deliver blood to the kidneys. Within the kidney, the renal artery branches into tiny capillaries, which exchanges life-sustaining oxygen for waste products. (This pattern of blood flow is seen in mammals, amphibians, birds and reptiles.)

The renal portal system is a second route by which blood moves from the back half of the body through the kidneys before returning to the heart. This system is found in birds, amphibians, reptiles and fish.

So, the blood from the back half of the body moves through the kidneys before it goes back to the heart- and therefore drugs will be filtered out before they move through the front half of the body. But drugs given in the front half of the body have to go through the front part of the body, then the heart, then the kidneys last.

RebelArtt · 02-15-12, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will0W783

You need to be giving injections in the FIRST third of the body, NOT near the tail end. Snakes have a renal portal system, so all blood and lymph fluid circulates through the front half of the body, then the kidneys, then the back half. Giving an injection in the tail end means that it will all be filtered out via the kidneys before it has a chance to get to the infected lungs.

You need to get a new vet..>ASAP. The one you are going to is likely not knowledgeable.

i did not know any of this stuff at the time. my new vet explained that all to me at our visit yesterday. it sucks the old vet ****ed me over like that, because i was recommended to them by about 10 different people.

Quote:

Originally Posted by shaunyboy

if its not the way the pictures been taken,then it is a very strange looking tail

cheers shaun

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will0W783

Guys, that bloated tail looks to me like a sign of impaction/constipation. The animal is severely swollen near the cloaca. Either it's getting ready to take a massive poo, or perhaps the injection was given improperly and punctured the intestinal wall, causing an infection?

I'd like to hear an update from the OP- how is the snake doing? Any bowel movements? From now on, give injections in the first 1/3 of the body...NOT the tail end.

i covered this already. she was taking a poop when i took the picture. if you had read previously, you would have seen me say this. and yes, i do plan on giving injections only in the front end of the body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfus_305

^^ Also, OP how did the vet visit (to the new vet) go this morning??

i am very sorry to say that after our new vet visit last night, missy passed on. due to the apparent lack of knowledge of the old vet ((who came highly recommended)), the injection site in which they had me giving her meds doomed her from the very first injection they gave her, and ended up poisoning her system. the new vet however still had no explanation for the issue pertaining to the blood under the skin. he did know what i was talking about tho. he had seen it once before if another patients snake, but not large of an area as i explained to him.

Will0W783 · 02-15-12, 06:17 AM

Oh no, I'm so sorry for your loss!! My condolences- it sucks to lose a pet.
Sorry I missed the thing about the poop; it was a long thread to read through. My bad.

RebelArtt · 02-15-12, 06:39 AM

thanks. yea it was a rough day yesterday. i've never had a sick snake, much less lost one. the vet told me there was nothing i could have done. he said whether i had given her shots or not, she was being poisoned from the very 1st injection that the vet gave her and that her passing was inevitable. he told me that yes, i poisoned her more by continuing them, but had i not, she would have suffered a much more slower death, in which she would have completely given up eating and could have possibly starved to death before passing from the poison.

it was hard coming home to the rest of my snakes and handling them, but not my missy. i can't handle losing pets. i handle it worse then losing people, because i connect with animals on a much deeper emotional & spiritual level than i do with humans. hell i hand fed wild wolves at 4 years old, slept with a mountain lion, and wrestled with fighting pit bulls until they knew i was dominant. my boyfriend could not understand why i cried my eyes out over a snake. he told me "its just a snake. there's plenty more in this world." so i told him "you're just a man. there's plenty more men in the world too. but there's only one of you, just as there was only 1 of missy."
he finally got the picture & aplologized.

Swany · 02-15-12, 06:47 AM

So sorry to read this pal. My Condolencies.

alessia55 · 02-15-12, 08:08 AM

RIP Missy... you did your best -hugs-

Wolfus_305 · 02-15-12, 08:41 AM

Awww I'm so sorry for your loss. You did everything you could do and everybody here tried to help too. I'm very sorry

Will0W783 · 02-15-12, 09:48 AM

RebelArtt, if it makes you feel any better, I had a bad experience with the first reptile vet I used. This vet claimed to be skilled in treating reptiles, and I had good luck when my ball python got an eye infection (this was my first snake and I had had him only a year at the time). Two years later, my fiance bought a gorgeous diamond/jungle intergrade female yearling. Intrigue was an awesome little snake with pretty patterns and a great personality. She came down with a respiratory infection, and we took her to the vet- he prescribed Baytril. Now Intrigue showed no neurological effects before I took her. The vet gave the first injection (an entire mL of solution), and I thought the volume was awfully high for such a little snake. He said he diluted it properly for her weight. Less than 12 hours after that first injection, she was corkscrewing her whole body up, writhing around and gaping her mouth. I called the vet's emergency line and told them what was happening. He said it had to be pneumonia and that I should give the second shot. I was terribly afraid to but my fiance insisted....she was dead 4 hours later.
I know that the vet had to have mistaken the dose or overdosed her- it looked like a horrible way to die and I was heartbroken and sick over it. I never went back to that vet.

Fortunately, I have an awesome reptile vet now that travels the country for conferences on reptile care. He has kept many snakes over the years and is even an avid field herper.

It can be absolutely devastating to lose a pet, and I know it can be even harder when it was a medical mistake that hastened the demise. But you couldn't have known- you trusted your veterinarian and the blame lies with him/her. I'm so sorry you had to experience this, but don't let it scare you away from keeping reptiles and continuing the search for a great reptile vet.

One good home reference I highly recommend is a book called "What's Wrong With My Snake?" by Dr. John Rossi, DVM. It provides descriptions of common reptile health problems, what you can do at home and when to call a vet, as well as common medicines, the illnesses they treat and dose/weight charts. It's a priceless reference to have around!

alessia55 · 02-15-12, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Will0W783

One good home reference I highly recommend is a book called "What's Wrong With My Snake?" by Dr. John Rossi, DVM. It provides descriptions of common reptile health problems, what you can do at home and when to call a vet, as well as common medicines, the illnesses they treat and dose/weight charts. It's a priceless reference to have around!

I highly recommend this book too! I think it's from 1955? but it's fantastic. I have an old copy at my place that I bought used from a library

But it's really great.