Regurgitating Rainbow Boa!!!

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Jendee

Theyve said it works far better then vet care so Im not sure what new technology your talking about. I dont even know what kind of advice your give for regurging beside checking husbandry and not stressing the animal. Regurge can and does become habit forming it does effect the digestio. System and they will dehydrate from it and die. Something at that point needs to be done. And at this point it seems you 2 are the only people i know who say literally no to any idea out there. If people producing 200-300 baby boas a yr tell me this works better then over the counter stuff. Im certainly going to give it a try it is much better then sitting around spending money at a vet over an over for a "problem" child to die

I think we can all discuss this without it getting so personal. Im especially not sure how I got lumped in with Aaron in any kind of general way, as its usually he and I on the opposing end of every discussion.

However, we do agree on this particular point as there is not only a lack of controlled testing evidence to support the use of probiotics, but actual scientific evidence to dispute it. There are many things that very reputable people think are true until such time as someone comes along to question and test it.

The same seems true here. Conventional wisdom in the past was that large snakes needed time to build up their stomach acids after a regurge. If I remember correctly some of those breeders you are discussing said this still. However, enough scientific study has been done now to show that isnt the case, and as a result we have looked for other causes for repeated regurgitations. This leads to a better understanding of both their physiology and our husbandry too. It seems like probiotics might fall under this same conventional wisdom that proves to be conjectural, and so with further testing could either be shown true or false. At this point controlled testing would need to be done, since its just some people saying it works and others saying it doesnt. All I was saying is that the scientific reasoning for probiotic treatment with yogurt is flawed due to this not being the right bacteria for snakes. Im not saying its absolutely impossible, just that it makes no sense scientifically.

As for the points I highlighted above, I would absolutely question those. What led you to those assumptions? Regurgitation is not a habit, it is a violent physical process with a direct cause. That the cause is not understood by the keeper does not mean it can just be labelled habitual or habit forming. For instance, if you get food poisoning and regurgitate numerous meals its not because of a habit, its because there is a real physical cause behind it.

Regurgitation is also not the same as diarrhea where dehydration would be the cause of death. Snakes who regurge can and do still drink and absorb water. The problem with regurgitation is that digestion is an energetically huge expenditure for these snakes. Restarting the digestive system requires large amounts of energy, amino acids, minerals, etc from a snake, which is normally replaced by that gained from the metabolism of the prey. However, repeated regurgitations mean that much is being repeatedly expended and nothing ever gained, so the animal would essentially be starving and depleted, not so much dehydrated.

So given your incorrect assumptions, and the possibility of passing them on to others, the wrong course of action could be taken and the root problem never solved. Which is why I wanted to present my information regarding the introduction of probiotics. I dont think its necessarily harmful at all, just that it does not address the actual cause of the problem.

As for whether or not something needs to be done in this particular case, I think it was very simple what needed to be done. Let the snake settle in and recheck the parameters of the habitat. The keeper has done both of those things, so I expect that it will do what most digestive problems do in good conditions, and sort itself out without the need for any kind of added unknown extras.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by jarich

The same seems true here. Conventional wisdom in the past was that large snakes needed time to build up their stomach acids after a regurge. If I remember correctly some of those breeders you are discussing said this still. However, enough scientific study has been done now to show that isnt the case..

I'd just like to point out that no matter who you are,that if you don't keep up with the new information in your direct business or at least remain open minded that there is new and correct information that you are simply a dinosaur and are doomed to fall to the wayside.

It's our job to at least keep an open-mind. Where would we be in monitor keeping if we didn't do this in recent years?

[Jendee]

I corrected the acid thing with hobbiest as most people on my fb are like me small time hobbiest. I personally called/emailed breeders to ask them this info.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.
Its really simple and you guys are dissecting it as though you all are doctors, everyone that I know have used it swear by it not one person said they've done it and it doesn't work. Ive seen a ton a ton of regurge posts and you guys to me are giving useless info. the boa is stressed and temps are wrong. well obviously something went wrong so what now. Well I gave a what now. and I well bet my collection on it lol if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof?? but again I spoke to them not you. So you have a right to disbelief. I will now know not to give advice since its completely pointless here, since I stand alone the op will disregard my tips (that's the frustrating part) and if your saying Im giving incorrect assumptions then Ill make sure to tell the guys that you two Aaron and who knows what your name is, is calling them wrong and idiots!! and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

also lady My name is Jendee, not just my members name Jendee Campbell infact google it all day if youd like its me!! No smoke screens here

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies

[Gravelanche]

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Gravelanche

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

Lots of personalities.

Animosity isn't generally a bad thing. Forums don't get big off threads about "nice pic!" type of posts. People lie when they say they don't like the drama. They read the drama filled threads the most.

[jarich]

Please don't feel so frustrated, as its not personal at all. In fact the whole point of science is to take the personal out of the equation. We are all just discussing information in an attempt to get further ahead collectively. That hopefully means that sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong, but always willing to see reason.

It was never my attempt to spit on anyone or be abusive, just to question a hypothesis that doesn't make sense based on my research. It's not the credibility of your breeders that's in question, I don't think anyone is questioning their ability to breed. However the information itself does not seem credible when viewed in light of what are known facts. Again there are plenty of examples of perfectly great breeders continuing for years with other mistaken beliefs. The smartest people in the world thought Earth was the center of the universe for centuries until one guy said, "hang on a minute, this doesn't add up..."

[lady_bug87]

Originally Posted by Gravelanche

it actually makes me sad how much in fighting there is around here, especially with the veteran members. when it comes to forums usually to make it to the thousands of posts there is a level of community and agreement on most things but this place seems to feed off animosity.

granted this thread started with the intent on debate but even the most inocuous threads are spawning some very angry arguments.

This coming from the guy who's been on a rampage in the last 2 'innocuous' threads he himself started....

[Gravelanche]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

This coming from the guy who's been on a rampage in the last 2 'innocuous' threads he himself started....

you are right, and it got so out of hand that i took a step back and realized how bad it gets here. I'm starting a personal promise to try my hardest to simply ignore people who get under my skin.

[lady_bug87]

As an active forum member (who does get into her fair share of trouble time to time) I appreciate that

[Aaron_S]

I tried to walk away but you decided to attack my character, knowledge and experience. I take that to heart because it isn't just mere hours or anything spent researching or reading it's been years.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.

We didn't spit on it. We said science has proven that it isn't actually the cure it's being claimed to be. I also don't care who you know or who they are. I couldn't careless if it was Jeff Ronne, Brian Sharp, Rich Isle or the Barkers. I'd debate with them just the same. We all know the likes of who you believe to be a "someone". We saw what happened there didn't we?

Your whole point from these people is that if I am sick and take a teaspoon of vinegar everyday before I take my medication that it was the vinegar that cured me.

My point this whole time has been that there is no definite proof of that yogurt is a cure to regurges. Do you have the timeline of when this was administered and when the next meal was offered? I and others believe that whoever you speak to is pointing a finger at yogurt while in reality there's another underlying actual solution to the problem.

I guess it's okay to believe in this miracle cure for your snakes. The history of mankind is rife with such foolish beliefs in cure-alls and miracle cures.

if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof??

Again, see above for my proof of why it isn't enough proof. I believe there's another reason for it and it has nothing to do with yogurt.

and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

Where did I state I currently breed boas? Where did I say I've never had a hiccup. I said I've never had the blatant problems with regurge as you seem to and your highly touted breeders.

and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

So someone left because of me? Kind of a sad person who leaves an entire forum due to one person when there's an ignore function.

What BS have I given? I'm sure all the people who ask me for advice and have healthy animals would say otherwise.

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies

I'm not closed minded to trying it. I've stated multiple times for MORE information in regards to any testing your sources have done for a definite answer. As stated at the beginning of this that I believe something else is helping the animals and you have yet to prove me wrong because you haven't answered my questions. I'll repeat them.

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

[Chu'Wuti]

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.

Yes, you are absolutely correct, Jendee--that IS normal behavior; in fact, in academic research, it's REQUIRED behavior, and that's the world in which I live.

As Jarich said,

its not personal at all. In fact the whole point of science is to take the personal out of the equation. We are all just discussing information in an attempt to get further ahead collectively. That hopefully means that sometimes we are right, sometimes wrong, but always willing to see reason.

(bold added for emphasis)

Jarich also said, and this is my position as well:

It was never my attempt to spit on anyone or be abusive, just to question a hypothesis that doesn't make sense based on my research.

YOU know who you talked to, but WE don't. We still don't have ANY scientific evidence to support anyone's claim that yogurt will cure regurgitation. Evidence all we're asking for.

Aaron's questions, i.e.,

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

are all completely reasonable questions to ask when someone tells us of a "cure" that we've never heard of before. I myself would still want a comparison study of a regurge group fed yogurt versus a regurge group treated the "old" way or simply left alone for awhile before being offered food again--a control group, as we call them in scientific research.

And as I think I mentioned previously (if I didn't, I intended to), snakes did not evolve on cow's milk or yogurt; they do not have the digestive enzymes needed to digest cow's milk or yogurt properly, which makes me even more hesitant to try something like this without further evidence that it works. Giving an animal a food item that it did not evolve to eat can make it very sick.

Why does it bother you so much that we're asking reasonable questions? EVERYONE on this forum should be able to ask questions in order to learn more and in order to assess the information they're given for its validity and credibility, including you. I understand that you trust the people from whom you got the information about using yogurt; that's fine, but we don't know them, so we can't trust them.

Asking questions isn't spitting on something.

Asking questions is SMART. That's how we learn.

[NBLADE]

Originally Posted by Jendee

I corrected the acid thing with hobbiest as most people on my fb are like me small time hobbiest. I personally called/emailed breeders to ask them this info.

Im sooo frustrated about this because I know who I talked too, and I know there wasnt just a handful of them with a handful of experience. So Im willing to place money on the fact that this tip is legit and helpful. But because you guys don't know the credibility of me or whos I talked to your going to question it and that's normal behavior.
But now people aren't even going to consider it an option bc you guys have spat on it so much only because you don't have the info I carry, or know the people I know and I want to beat my head on the wall.

We haven't spat all over it, just asked for some reasonable scientific evidence that introducing a foreign bacteria into a snakes system is helpful, as before it is given out as advice to try on a snake that has regurged once, likely due to husbandry issues, i'd personally like to know of any issues that can come from it, or if there are any types that can have a negative effect on the snakes body.


Its really simple and you guys are dissecting it as though you all are doctors, everyone that I know have used it swear by it not one person said they've done it and it doesn't work. Ive seen a ton a ton of regurge posts and you guys to me are giving useless info. the boa is stressed and temps are wrong. well obviously something went wrong so what now. Well I gave a what now. and I well bet my collection on it lol if every breeder you knew who had 500 plus animals and has been doing it for 30 yrs, high profile public people told you that they use it everytime there is hiccup then how is that not enough trial and error proof??


We have said what to do, check the husbandry, make sure everything is spot on, leave the snake to settle, as a new shy species of snake will often need time to adjust before the stress levels go down, then feed again, which is a lot less risky than introducing foreign substances into snakes systems.


but again I spoke to them not you. So you have a right to disbelief. I will now know not to give advice since its completely pointless here, since I stand alone the op will disregard my tips (that's the frustrating part) and if your saying Im giving incorrect assumptions then Ill make sure to tell the guys that you two Aaron and who knows what your name is, is calling them wrong and idiots!! and if you say you breed boas but have never had a hiccup then to me that makes you even less of a person in my eyes. Its like the Ive never had mites thing..one day it will happen and when you keep a bunch of snakes odds are someone will get sick or have a problem. no good keeper, stable figure in the herp world has a perfect track record I call bullshit

I've not called any body an idiot, i'm just asking for more proof, i don't care if the person was the most well known person in the industry or some back yard breeder, i'd be asking the same things, in the aid to learn more about the risks, if someone reads this and sees yogurt is supposed to work, goes and gets some after a snake has regurged due to incorect husbandry, gets loads of yogurt into the snakes stomach, and then has the snake go on to die due to an over load of the wrong bacteria, or the yogurt kills of the good bacteria in the snakes system, then what happens? I don't think it is wrong to be cautious about such advise until the scientific studies have been taken out and proven side effects are listed. As for never having a hiccup, of course we all have, it happens when breeding animals, you can get the odd egg bound female, or in boas cases, you can get the slug out and still borns, when you are working with so many animals, some will die during breeding, it happens, but to consistently get bad feeders and snakes that actually regurge straight from being born, in every single littler, there is definitely either a husbandry issue, a stress issue, or that is a very weak liken to be breeding together.


and Aaron...you've run a lot of people off this site. I always saw you as a guy who knows his ****. But Im beginning to feel like your just good at bsing and intimidating the locals here on this forum. From your pet shop experience..I heard ball pythons maybe but that's the jist of it *bow down*

also lady My name is Jendee, not just my members name Jendee Campbell infact google it all day if youd like its me!! No smoke screens here

open minded?? aaron its your way or the high way around here. being open minded would be trying yogurt lol being closed minded is well you cant give dairy products to reptiles...umm im pretty sure dairy product is in the little bellys of those pinkies

Answers in red, but i'm all for being open minded and trying new techniques, when they are shown to me to be non detrimental to the health of my animals, but for now, with a one off regurge, likely caused by husbandry issues and stress of the move, it seems pointless to risk introducing a foreign substance into a snake for no reason.

[Jendee]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I tried to walk away but you decided to attack my character, knowledge and experience. I take that to heart because it isn't just mere hours or anything spent researching or reading it's been years.

Oh you read a book?? You've had one season of breeding ball pythons?? anybody can breed ball pythons its why a lot of hobbiest sell out of boas and go to balls bc they are easier to breed and easier to care for. Having read a few articles or a book or 2 and having one season of breeding pythons no where near make you the authority you claim (on pythons not even touching the boa subject) or that your little followers here claim. Step out of ssnakess and met the real world

We didn't spit on it. We said science has proven that it isn't actually the cure it's being claimed to be. I also don't care who you know or who they are. I couldn't careless if it was Jeff Ronne, Brian Sharp, Rich Isle or the Barkers. I'd debate with them just the same. We all know the likes of who you believe to be a "someone". We saw what happened there didn't we?

I see a few correct names add few more to that list and your golden. I have alerted them to this thread but they either don't care or ask me why I bother...which is true I don't understand why I argue with you people maybe I like it
I didn't know him by the way (my first mistake) and just bc your a snake in the grass doesn't mean you haven't gained knowledge from having..whats does that guy have 800 breeding animals I think he told me. that ******* knows his ****!!

Your whole point from these people is that if I am sick and take a teaspoon of vinegar everyday before I take my medication that it was the vinegar that cured me.

I was reading a post that you were giving a python mineral oil for constipation isn't that the same thing sir

My point this whole time has been that there is no definite proof of that yogurt is a cure to regurges. Do you have the timeline of when this was administered and when the next meal was offered? I and others believe that whoever you speak to is pointing a finger at yogurt while in reality there's another underlying actual solution to the problem.

I guess it's okay to believe in this miracle cure for your snakes. The history of mankind is rife with such foolish beliefs in cure-alls and miracle cures.

nobody said it was the cure! I simply said it would aid in recovery this isn't a gurge treatment if its a continual thing it has been proven to help

Again, see above for my proof of why it isn't enough proof. I believe there's another reason for it and it has nothing to do with yogurt.




Where did I state I currently breed boas? Where did I say I've never had a hiccup. I said I've never had the blatant problems with regurge as you seem to and your highly touted breeders.

(I was told)
Pythons rarely regurge you have to be seriously ****ing up for a python to regurge in most case its from low temps. you can feed large items, stress the animal and they hold it down.
boas <~~~this I know can gurge from temps being to high or to low. from stress via to much handling, loud noises, a move or shipment, you just cleaning out there cage lol baby boas can be a bit jumpy. If not careful the one regurge can become chronic.
I never said Ive had a serious issue with this Ive had a baby boa do this and die from dehydration. caused by the regurge at 3 wks old a regurge isn't a good thing at all!

So someone left because of me? Kind of a sad person who leaves an entire forum due to one person when there's an ignore function.

What BS have I given? I'm sure all the people who ask me for advice and have healthy animals would say otherwise.

Funny every single thread that looks like this you are at the four front. Your rude and a know it all and yet you've read a book and had a handful of python eggs lol A lot of people ask me for advice everyday most already have healthy animals and are just concerned newbies looking for knowledge and your point is??

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

proof is in the pudding honey your not fooling me



I'm not closed minded to trying it. I've stated multiple times for MORE information in regards to any testing your sources have done for a definite answer. As stated at the beginning of this that I believe something else is helping the animals and you have yet to prove me wrong because you haven't answered my questions. I'll repeat them.

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

I have 6 possible litters this yr. If everyone drops viable litters. I record everything in records, poop, pee, sheds, feeding ect If and when I have a problem child whether that be a difficult starter or a gurge Ill record my yogurt trails and copy/scan and report here. My first litter for this season drops in 5 wks.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Jendee

I have 6 possible litters this yr. If everyone drops viable litters. I record everything in records, poop, pee, sheds, feeding ect If and when I have a problem child whether that be a difficult starter or a gurge Ill record my yogurt trails and copy/scan and report here. My first litter for this season drops in 5 wks.

A whole 6 litters?! Really? You're so awesome.

Oh you read a book?? You've had one season of breeding ball pythons?? anybody can breed ball pythons its why a lot of hobbiest sell out of boas and go to balls bc they are easier to breed and easier to care for. Having read a few articles or a book or 2 and having one season of breeding pythons no where near make you the authority you claim (on pythons not even touching the boa subject) or that your little followers here claim. Step out of ssnakess and met the real world

LOL. I've read many books and talked to many people. I've been reading and learning for quite some time. I don't have followers. Apparently caring for animals doesn't give anyone any experience. Only breeding does? Really?

What's your issue with ball pythons? I've never once said it's difficult to breed them. I've said multiple times how I can give my nephew some and he'd be able to accomplish it too. Boas are slightly more difficult but not nearly what you're making them out to be.

I see a few correct names add few more to that list and your golden. I have alerted them to this thread but they either don't care or ask me why I bother...which is true I don't understand why I argue with you people maybe I like it
I didn't know him by the way (my first mistake) and just bc your a snake in the grass doesn't mean you haven't gained knowledge from having..whats does that guy have 800 breeding animals I think he told me. that ******* knows his ****!!

So you're still going to believe his words after you find out he's a liar? Wow. You're something else.

I was reading a post that you were giving a python mineral oil for constipation isn't that the same thing sir

How old was that post? As I've stated MANY times. It's about evolving and finding new information. Some things get dated and were wrong.

nobody said it was the cure! I simply said it would aid in recovery

Yes, you said the big breeders who you randomly e-mailed or called (doesn't count as knowing them if you just know their business/reputation) said it was even better than vet care! Definitely sounds like you're saying it's a cure. Too bad it isn't even remotely true.


I went searching through the thread and found this in your first post about yogurt.

A week after the last regurge tube feed her greek yogurt.

Funny how it aids a WEEK after the last regurge. Hmm..common sense would dictate it isn't the yogurt doing anything but time itself.

(I was told)
Pythons rarely regurge you have to be seriously ****ing up for a python to regurge in most case its from low temps. you can feed large items, stress the animal and they hold it down.
boas <~~~this I know can gurge from temps being to high or to low. from stress via to much handling, loud noises, a move or shipment, you just cleaning out there cage lol baby boas can be a bit jumpy. If not careful the one regurge can become chronic.
I never said Ive had a serious issue with this Ive had a baby boa do this and die from dehydration. caused by the regurge at 3 wks old a regurge isn't a good thing at all!

Yes, pythons don't regurge normally so in my home with my personal collections over the years I've never experienced. Do note that I've had other species, including some boas, and neither have they. Apparently I don't have any experience though.

Also I've never said it wasn't an issue. It can be issue but not one that is as big as you say. Did you get a necropsy done on your dead boa or did you just presume or were told that it was dehydration?

Funny every single thread that looks like this you are at the four front. Your rude and a know it all and yet you've read a book and had a handful of python eggs lol A lot of people ask me for advice everyday most already have healthy animals and are just concerned newbies looking for knowledge and your point is??

You never answer my questions. Why do you avoid them? Keep deflecting. You state I am full of BS. I asked where have I? You didn't answer. I guess you've got to twist things to make your point and make your petty attempt to discredit me. I have done more than read a book and had a handful of python eggs. You're welcome to make petty comments though. Makes you look big.

So you've heard I keep ball pythons currently MAYBE? My pictures don't prove that? The fact that I've been in the hobby for over a decade means I apparently can NEVER own anything else? Really? You decided to stoop to a rather childish level.

proof is in the pudding honey your not fooling me

And where do you get this information? Fool you how? I'm not trying to fool anyone. I know my experience and know what I've kept. You can say I'm just a ball python breeder all you want but the fact is I've done far more than that well before I took that on. You're welcome to your crazy views though.

When do you plan on answering these?

What time line did your sources use?
How often did they administer the yogurt?
What are the exact ingredients of the yogurt?
How soon after administering the yogurt was prey offered? If so was it taken?
What size prey is being offered? How often?

[NBLADE]

Why has this become personal? I thought it was going alright with decent points from both sides, but it now seems the good points are being over looked and it is just turning into personal insults. If we could get it back on track to a decent debate then new comers to the hobby could potentially learn something.