Help: feeding issues GTB - Page 4

**Aaron_S** · 10-10-12, 06:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Screen isn't good, you will lose a lot of moisture that way.

What do you want me to say, Aaron. I've already explained myself. I could start repeating.

I'm waiting for you to refute the hard evidence that you're wrong. How you recommend setting up these aboreal boids isn't the way a lot of people do it. I pointed to a very well known breeder in the website I linked. He literally paved a lot of the way for GTP's and how we think about housing them and the like. You can always take it up with him that his "one branch" system isn't viable for his animals to thrive.

BarelyBreathing · 10-10-12, 10:14 AM

A well known breeder of green tree pythons. We aren't talking about green tree pythons.

Also, it's a pretty well known fact that when snakes aren't allowed to move around, stretch out, utilize the area, they get sick, and they die. That's why so many green tree pythons, burmese pythons, reticulated pythons die in captivity. Their enclosures are too small.

On top of that, these snakes move around in the wild. Our job as keepers is to replicate that. If a snake can't move, what sort of life is it living?

bnol0493 · 10-10-12, 11:34 AM

sorry, i have a life i dont sit on here all day. But yes. i was wrong. I got the second cage he as 10+ different branches at different heights in his cage. I insulated the screen top and hes been great.

Newest emergence of concern though, he has three spots of dark blue scales on his body since he shed. one located around the burn/infection spot.

**Aaron_S** · 10-10-12, 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

A well known breeder of green tree pythons. We aren't talking about green tree pythons.

Also, it's a pretty well known fact that when snakes aren't allowed to move around, stretch out, utilize the area, they get sick, and they die. That's why so many green tree pythons, burmese pythons, reticulated pythons die in captivity. Their enclosures are too small.

On top of that, these snakes move around in the wild. Our job as keepers is to replicate that. If a snake can't move, what sort of life is it living?

We aren't in the wild. So moot point.

Where's the scientific data about "stretching out" and then death? I'd like to see this. And then to show every breeder and then get animal cruelty charges placed on everyone.

The fact is. You're wrong. I'm not saying to stuff everything into something that can't move but you're wrong here. People have been keeping ETB's and GTP's in similar set ups for awhile. A couple perches is all they really need.

To Bnol. Turn your enclosure on it's side. Going up just means your snake will always be near the lamps. The reason being that these guys will pretty much spend all their time at the highest perch. Turning it sideways allows it to go from cold or hot without compromising it's comfort.

etc · 10-10-12, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Also, it's a pretty well known fact that when snakes aren't allowed to move around, stretch out, utilize the area, they get sick, and they die. That's why so many green tree pythons, burmese pythons, reticulated pythons die in captivity. Their enclosures are too small.

Regarding green tree pythons, I have never heard this before. Many of them actually die because they're WC (just like the ETB in question here hinted by the scars that are common among imported animals [btw, you are supposed to give them "showers" when they're constipated]) and don't make smooth transitions, not because they don't have the room to move around in. Nowadays, many people will argue that 2x2 is fine for males, 3x2 are good for females, and 4x2 will do if you really want to give it a sweet home. Many successes have come from considerably less than these 'norms' by the way. I have never heard of a single document that suggest that chondros die from the lack of space anywhere, can you link your sources here?

Many ETB keepers use comparable cage sizes to GTPs, even the big amazon basin locales.

Amazon Basins \ Husbandry \ Perch Size

Just because it can be done, it doesn't suggest that it's the most viable option for the animals themselves. However, I don't think they're dying from it. I'm not questioning you for the sake of arguing, but rather actually curious where you have got this information from.

BarelyBreathing · 10-10-12, 04:04 PM

Read about respiratory infections in large pythons, Aaron.

Do you buy a dog and keep him in a small kennel all day? No. Do you keep your children in closets? No. The fact of the matter is any living animal needs to be able to move.

**Aaron_S** · 10-10-12, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

Read about respiratory infections in large pythons, Aaron.

Do you buy a dog and keep him in a small kennel all day? No. Do you keep your children in closets? No. The fact of the matter is any living animal needs to be able to move.

I have. Cite your sources or I'll just keep presuming that you'll pulling things out of your butt.

I want specific sources!

Also, you now mention large pythons. Your previous statement only included ALL snakes. So what are we talking about here?

Honestly, to my knowledge and experience, I've never seen an RI develop from "too small" of an enclosure. I don't agree with super small enclosures either but you're making it out to be a death sentence off the bat.

CITE YOUR SOURCES.

**Aaron_S** · 10-10-12, 04:11 PM

On another note, comparing humans to snakes? Really? You obviously have no case here.

BarelyBreathing · 10-10-12, 04:46 PM

It's a fact that immobility causes respiratory problems, not only in large snakes, but in other animals as well, dogs, cats, humans, smaller snakes. I don't have any specific sources right now, because I am posting on my phone. But seriously, look around on the internet. I thought it was common knowledge.

**Aaron_S** · 10-10-12, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

It's a fact that immobility causes respiratory problems, not only in large snakes, but in other animals as well, dogs, cats, humans, smaller snakes. I don't have any specific sources right now, because I am posting on my phone. But seriously, look around on the internet. I thought it was common knowledge.

Let's back up here. We're talking snakes. I don't care about the rest.

We aren't talking enclosures of "immobility". I'm talking smaller cages then you suggest.

We'll go back to the original snake topic, shall we?

The OP suggests he has a couple perches for his snake. You say he needs more "because they don't use just two in the wild." That they NEED this room to "stretch out" and "utilize".

I present a link to GTP's, as well as someone else has towards ETB's with the SAME set ups of just ONE branch covering a 3 - 4 foot enclosure length and maybe 18 inches to 2 feet high. These snakes obviously not only survive but THRIVE without any medical issues.

My ball pythons are kept in tubs. They not only survive but THRIVE without medical issues.

We'll use a larger group here though, BHB has THOUSANDS of snakes ALL in bins. Even his GTP'S are in bins! Yet he somehow manages to breed and raise these snakes pretty well.

I thought this was common knowledge....

Where are YOUR sources? I've given several. Why not post YOUR animals set ups as well?

BarelyBreathing · 10-10-12, 10:15 PM

A four foot enclosure is a different story. We were talking about a two foot enclosure.

I think tubs are fine if they are large. I don't agree with full grown ball pythons is sweater boxes. When I had my ball pythons, I kept them in tubs, too. Four foot tubs. I think if space and welfare of the animals aren't the priorities of a keeper, they shouldn't keep animals.

My enclosures, for emerald tree boas, which is what we are talking about, not green tree pythons or ball pythons:
Here's one before adding branches.

Here's one I've used in the past for a sub adult. She's since outgrown this one, and again, this is before adding other branches.

Another

A juvie set up (and that top is plexiglass)

Can you show me your ETB set ups?

etc · 10-10-12, 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

This is a really nice set up. Are you breeding them?

**Aaron_S** · 10-11-12, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

A four foot enclosure is a different story. We were talking about a two foot enclosure.

I think tubs are fine if they are large. I don't agree with full grown ball pythons is sweater boxes. When I had my ball pythons, I kept them in tubs, too. Four foot tubs. I think if space and welfare of the animals aren't the priorities of a keeper, they shouldn't keep animals.

My enclosures, for emerald tree boas, which is what we are talking about, not green tree pythons or ball pythons:
Here's one before adding branches.

Another

A juvie set up (and that top is plexiglass)

Can you show me your ETB set ups?

The first two pics I took out but they look like 2 foot enclosures from those angles...guess 4 foot isn't what everyone needs.

We aren't talking ball pythons but you brought humans and ALL snake species into the argument with your first "rebuttal" so I went with the snake argument. I don't think you should be talking about "welfare" of animals when you're multi-housing snakes in what SHOULD be only for a single specimen especially of solitary lifestyle.

I admit it by the way, I'm a snake farmer. I keep my snakes in proper set-ups so I can breed them and "harvest" their young. My animals are fed on a proper diet, housed in correct sized tubs and live out a solid, thriving life, where they can move around. They don't get sick, they don't have bad sheds so I don't see what I'm doing wrong.

I'm still waiting for your written sources of medical issues with smaller enclosures with all snakes. I guess you don't. Thanks for playing.

BarelyBreathing · 10-10-12, 11:51 PM

Thanks. No, I have no breeding plans.

Wildside · 10-11-12, 08:15 AM

LOL! ITT Cage size Queen strikes again