Cassie eating a fuzzy.

[Bradyloach]

Hedys monitors are all healthy tho... She is a very good keeper. she offers her monitors a varitey which i cant do as good as her right now, so im feeding mice to give cass energy

[mo9e64]

when are you going to address your other issue,your monitor is eating-focusing on diet and boredom might be taking your focus away from other possible problems.Sitting for long periods under a basking spot of the temp you described i would think is more serious than variety in his diet.Is it possible that your ambient temp is too low-

[Bradyloach]

Nope.its boredom. the issue is fixed when i get the enclosure tomorrow

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

No, but I don't have a PhD, remember? Clearly I have no right or reason to speak my mind, because doing so is "imprudent".

You have every right to speak your mind, as long as you understand, so does everyone else.

Imprudence is from expecting no counter argument replies.

Michael Balsai: This has never been a problem for me or many of my colleagues either. All of us encourage varied diets, but I see no problem at present with rodent biased diets when used responsibly.

What I tried to say to you in the most polite way I could is this.

Virtually all of the experts who have cited that a diet that includes rodents will not lead to health issues or death have degrees.

This should indicate that they know what they are talking about.

I certainly do not think that PBS, Animal Planet, BBC and others would chose to build documentaries around their work otherwise.

So when a lone voice in the crowd shouts out "you guys don't know what you are talking about" of course that one lone voice must expect all heads to turn in that person's direction and ask "Please cite your proof that these experts are wrong"

And then even the experts themselves are kind enough to extend the courtesy of offering the benefit of doubt and also ask to please present your proof.

Then that lone voice says "my computer is broken" & "I have it somewhere but I cannot produce it"

Then at that point the one lone voice must certainly expect the criticism that is undoubtedly going to follow.



One thing I learned many years ago about forums, even I do not speak in absolutes without backup.

The best path to follow is "I feel that" or "It is of my opinion"

If one is going to say that water is made from hydrogen and nitrogen, then that person will be asked to provide how this conclusion came to be, and will be asked to repeat the lab results before the book of elements will be rewritten.

[Trent]

Excellent post Wayne!

[Gregg M]

I can not believe that posting a vid of a sav eating a mouse would cause such a rucus. I hav to say it is quite silly to not use rodents as a part of a varanids diet. They eat them, they thrive on them. Always have and always will. I think anyone who offers an invert only diet is NOT doing righ by their animals.
Brady,

Do not be affraid to offer mice a few times a week. Your sav will do fine. Just make sure your temps and humidity are up to par. Do not get put off because a select few can not get it in their heads that mice are nothing like fast food for reptiles.
If I were you, I would post another vid tomorrow of your sav eating 2 more. LOL

BarelyBreathing, some of the varanids you keep mainly eat lizards in the wild. Some of the dwarfs make their entire living on it. How many of your varanids are getting a staple diet of lizards?

[Bradyloach]

Cassie ate another 3 today.

[BarelyBreathing]

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

And yes, Gregg, I'm lucky enough to have captive bred anoles and geckos at my disposal during hatching season, as well as an assortment of anoles and geckos that have been treated for parasites in the off season.

[Skits]

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds? Just wondering if I should be feeding him rats now? I'd still like to have him on something natural, but as Brady said, living in Canada makes it hard to find what savs need in their diet. I'll be going to a bait store next weekend and hopefully can find shrimps and snails there, and pick up some worms. I'm just confused now.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

I think this is the crutch of it. While its ok to feed them one every once in a while, feeding them regularly and frequently can result in weight problems. Think about it. I nice big steak every so often is fine. But start consuming them 2-3 times a day as a meal and you'll probably start putting on weight unless you're a fitness nut.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Skits

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds?

http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/varan...ttle-savs.html

Originally Posted by bodiddleyitis

"sure savs eat rodents in the wild, i agree savs are oportuntic feeders"

Savannah monitors aren't opportunistic feeders in the wild. They are after very specific types of prey and none of them are rodents. I think that's because they couldn't compete with all the other animals that are feeding on rodents; if they come across small enough rodents of course they will eat them but the search patterns they use turn up a rather narrow range of invertebrates, snails, and frogs with the odd reptile egg and that's what is in their guts almost all of the time. Of course the range of the species is very wide and our sample sizes are very small, but so far its feeding ecology looks rather specialised compared to opportunistic monitor species.

I think that you can recognise, or define, opportunistic monitors in the wild, by seeing if they are attracted to rotten carrion. If you try to bait monitor lizards with carrion in Africa you will get niloticus but you will not get exanthematicus. If you did it in Malaysia you would get biawaks and bengalensis but you would not get rudicollis and you probably wouldn't get dumerilii either. If you did in the Philippines you would only get biawaks. It's a useful definition because it's a very easy test. I'd guess that if you did it in Indonesia you wouldn't get prasinus type animals and you have some surprise non shows amongst the others.

What do we know about the natural diets of these monitors that can't be attracted with bait? Of course their range is wide and our sample sizes are very small but they seem to have very tight dietary niches compared to their opportunistic counterparts. There's a conspicuous lack of what I would call snake food.

Incidentally; these non carrion eating monitor lizards tend to perform poorly in captivity, especially the ones that live in wet forests. In contrast the carrion eaters are generally considered quite easy to breed.

How such idle speculation can be applied to the feeding of monitor lizards in boxes is uncertain, because all monitor lizards that can be bred in boxes will apparently thrive for indefinite generations on a diet of rodents and invertebrates. There's (almost?) no documented evidence of generations of captive monitors raised without rodents, but for many years now people have been banging on about how vital it is to omit rodents from the diets of savannah monitor lizards in particular. Why could that be?

David H. Good 1998, REPTILE magazine. Misunderstanding the Savannah Monitor: An Argument for Changed Husbandry.

This junk article was based on a talk the author had heard, but apparently entirely failed to comprehend, about wild savannah monitors. The talk was at the only monitor lizard conference that has ever been held in the USA, in San Diego. David Good spectacularly got every single detail in his article wrong, and the only thing he remembered correctly was that no rodents had been found in the diet of savannah monitors. He used this to suggest a rethink of savannah monitor husbandry that should have landed him in prison. Ever since it's been regularly rehashed by generations of monitor keepers who have spectacularly failed to breed their lizards. "They need a natural diet in captivity", what utter nonsense.

What David Good should have done was listen to another talk on the same day by a man nobody in the monitor lizard world had ever heard of. I can honestly say that nobody I knew in that room believed a word of it at the time, but it sparked a complete revolution in the way monitor lizards were kept. More importantly, it introduced a completely different philosophy to the husbandry of captives; that captive conditions should improve on natural conditions rather than replicate them. In nature monitor lizards are constrained by limited heat, water, food and shelters. By removing these constraints he claimed monitor lizards would grow at phenomenal rates and become fecund beyond all expectations. When members of the audience objected to basking temperatures so high they could easily kill the lizards, he claimed that the monitors sought such heat out of their own free will.

"so why would you not just try your best to give it as close to the natural living conditions as posible with out argument? sounds like kinda a crazy argument ?" Not really, because natural conditions are harsh and it's just possible that savannah monitors actually prefer rodents to milipedes.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by Skits

First, I love how Cassie suddenly ran for the mouse She's really cute.

And second, when I had first got Spencer and had given him a rat (or mouse, I can't remember), I was told by pretty much everyone on this forum that it was wrong for savs. And now everyones changed their minds? Just wondering if I should be feeding him rats now? I'd still like to have him on something natural, but as Brady said, living in Canada makes it hard to find what savs need in their diet. I'll be going to a bait store next weekend and hopefully can find shrimps and snails there, and pick up some worms. I'm just confused now.

This was the reason for myinitial response, everything i had "learnt" from this forum was that rodents were bad bad bad. I will be honest that whilst i tend to read every thread and every post i kinda phased out with the big thread that wayne posted cos it seemed to turn into a pissing contest between monitor owners and i couldnt be arsed to sort the wheat from the chaff as i dont own a sav (yet) and didntfeel the need to keep myself updated until the time ocmes when it is me deciding what to fed my own animals.

[Gregg M]

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

And this is exactly why this shouldn't be promoted. It's gone from once every week or two to every day in less than 24 hours.

So what? It is still not going to do any harm to his savannah. Especially being that it is still a growing monitor. Rodents are not bad. Many reptiles with much slower metabolic rates than varanids make their living on mice.

Its cool that you choose not to give your varanids rodent. But do not make people feel bad or feel like they are not doing the right thing by giving theirs rodents. It is NOT bad for their health and will not do any damage. All you need to do is pay attention to your lizard. IF it is getting chuncky, all you need to do is cut back on it rodent intake. However, if your varanid is properly heated and hydrated, it is highly unlikely that they will get fat from having rodents in their diet.

I had a savannah that lived to see past 16 years old. Its first 5 or 6 years (might have been longer) it ONLY ate rodents.

Originally Posted by BarelyBreathing

And yes, Gregg, I'm lucky enough to have captive bred anoles and geckos at my disposal during hatching season, as well as an assortment of anoles and geckos that have been treated for parasites in the off season.

That is great.
What are you doing to prevent cryptosporidium? Regular fecal exams do not detect crypto (you need costly acid fast stain testing done) and there is no drug to treat it with. Geckos and anoles are known to carry crypto without showing signs.

I will take my chances with rodents.

[infernalis]

Just my own observation here.

As we all know, My babies are being well documented, probably better than anyones ever have, I film them daily.

Yesterday Cera who has consumed 2 small pinkie mice less than a day prior was out hunting for food again, That lizard slammed 5 medium size Dubia before retreating back into hiding.

Those pinkie mice passed quickly, indicating that in order to keep up with the hyper digestion rates of a properly kept well heated Savannah, bugs alone are just not going to cut it.

Furthermore, as it has been indicated by professionals, These animals glean their body water from food, and I am quite certain that a mouse will contain more liquid content than a bug will.

[mo9e64]

It's funny the logic people use-don't feed rodents because they aren't part of a natural diet -but treat what they eat for parasites.
Correct me if i am wrong,but parasites usually are more of a problem with compromised monitors,usually weakened and kept in unsavoury conditions.But once healthy and under right conditions have an immune system,not an absolute,that allows feeding of any organism.So i was told that your choice of what you feed them should be based on your conditions.
Treating your monitor should be a last resort,remembering that many treatments are hard on it's kidneys etc-and by treating the prey your treating your monitor(OPINION)
What you feed your baby monitors as they are all quite small as long as whole prey items, shouldn't present a problem if you feed them enough.If you are stressed about their development dust their food with calcium.
Just remember when you are stressing about variety many keepers of monitors with longterm sucess have raised them on just crickets and mice(FACT)-and no mention of having to put them on antidepressants for boredom LOL