Teasing a BP with food..kinda

[KORBIN5895]

The village idiot is ready to speak. To those that gave advice I have two things to say. Honest and very heart felt. Harsh and slightly arrogant. I realize you guys have more experience than some of us. I also realize you see the same mistakes being made over and over again. So I see how you guys get frustrated. I see only two options to help here. Either stop allowing noobs to join or please be more patient with us that haven't been as serious about it as you are. You guys truly are a source of great knowledge and [B][/IB] appreciate that but it is harder to take advice given in the manner it was given.

Jaleely I find your posts slightly confusing. When you start saying you feed small rats then say when he was hungry you only had mediums to give him I get lost. Is this the BP you thought had a tear in it's esophagus? I thought you gave this guy a rat tail ans other small animals in other posts? I honestly am quite confused. I have seen where you are starting a snake rescue and think that if you have the time space and resources that you should grab the ball and run with it. You obviously have the heart to do. Somethinf wonserful for misunderstood animals. But you will also need knowledge which h I feel this place is the perfect thing for. I have a rat rescue story for you if you would like to hear it some time.

To those that are pissed at the FTP lady I have one question. Would you be pissed at me for feeding my atb a finch? Because I am having a difficult time getting him to eat mice or rats ,frozen or live. I tracked down the original owner and found out I am like the 5th owner and he feed it live birds. I understand where she is not concerned about her pet birds but hey it is the circle of life

[jaleely]

Korbin, This snake is my 10 year old adopted snake, whereas the one with the esophagus tear is "Ribs" from the pound. (Thank you for your words, BTW!

And really, I actually know i have a tendency to ramble, and write a bunch of stuff. I type really fast and it just comes out as i think it
I did say medium rats at first...and later i ceded that they were small-medium. But I mean really...my point is, the volume of food was probably equal to one small rabbit or something. WHy should it matter if i spread it out over three feedings? I guess that's my point. Everyone seems to think i force-fed him an elephant three times in a row. Sheesh.

And i am -not- going to get technical terms correct. Poop is poop to me. For now.
HOWEVER if someone had pointed out that the white poop is whatever it is, and I shouldn't be labeling it as poop...and therefore his metabolism wasn't working as i thought it was...it's probably something you should say nicely so I can take the advice, and look it up.
It's kind of hard to know everything when i don't know i need to look it up, you know!

I am learning new things about my snakes every day...hence the reason i wanted to join a snake forum *rolls eyes* I'm not about to put up with rudeness for no reason though. If you're tired of repeating yourself (which i did not ask you to) then don't say anything. If you want to volunteer information that you think i should know...be nice. It's as plain as that. This post was in no way asking your opinion on his feeding, pooping, or personality quirks i think he has.
If you want to make it about that though...which you did...at least two of you could have minded your manners.
I am NOT prideful. I LOVE advice. Because i LOVE my snakes (weather they like me or not =P

I already ceded that I may have been overexcited to see that he was eating, and moving around and showing interest in food. *shrug* no need to jump on my back for it. If you think i'm killing him or something...even that could have been said with some feeling...and should have been, if you're so concerned with my snake's well-being.

I don't know. I was having a lot of fun making posts, and reading about everyone's snakes. I jumped into snake husbandry with both feet, and am honestly trying to learn a lot of species at once right now. But, again, that's why I'm here. It's not like i'm not trying to learn, and I completely am open to advice. Everytime I learn something new i shout it to my husband across the house in excitement. I do take time to look things up, if i don't understand. I just shouldn't have to feel bummed out that some "oldies" got irritated at my "noob-ness". Come on. Like I said, if you're tired of saying things...then don't. If you feel it needs to be said, then say it nice *shrug*

[shaunyboy]

korbin

i feel my advice was neither harsh or arrogant

i merely explained how long it usually takes for a snake to clear its gut

i also explained how i start by feeding prey 2 sizes to small,then prey 1 size to small,to get the snakes stomach used to eating again

an arrogant person surely would not end a post by saying the above is my way of doing things,everyone has their own methods for times like these

to the op
the white poop is urates not poop

eurates is a solidified salt like substance a snake passes instead of urine

i hope my post did not offend you,as that was not my intention

my intention was to give you my own personal experiences in fasting snakes 6 month of the year and my way of doing starting them back on prey,it was nothing more than some facts and a suggestion

re people always reffering to snakes in the wild
snakes may do things in the wild we would not agree with in captivity,but a lot of snakes die in the wild.the example you give of a snake in the wild eating 3 rats in a week.my thoughts on that are the snake in the wild,gets far more excercise than a captive snake kept in a wooden box.thats assuming a wild snake would bulk itself up with 3 feeds in 7 days.

the above is just my humble opinion,nothing more

we all learn from each other and at times theres more than one correct way to do things.imo this is why forums like these are great for learning from each others personal experiences

cheers shaun

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

All snakes are vigorous feeders when they are hungry, doesn't mean we should keep feeding them.

I suppose you don't know what you're actually talking about though since you say he hadn't eaten since July but pooped 5 times. A snake can't poop without anything in it's system. So was it urates or poop? There's a big difference.

I don't get how shedding has anything to do metabolism either. I simply stated that you shocked his system. Your snake hasn't had to metabolise anything since July and you decide to stuff it to the brim. How is that NOT a shock?

First, I think we had already established in a separate thread that there was no justification for being rude, by anyone. This forum is for the sake of learning, for both beginner and expert alike. Calling people absurd or saying they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help to teach them anything. If you are an expert, then you have a responsibility to pass on that knowledge for the sake of the animal.

Second, in this case the "experts" are incorrect in their assessment and the "noob" has it right. The length of fasting has no direct correlation on metabolic rate in pythons. Therefore, their metabolic system is not shocked by this, they evolved to this situation directly. Feeding a python 3 rats after a long fast is not unhealthy. This is not my opinion or thoughts on my years of experience, but has been shown in scientific studies like these:

The Effects of Fasting Duration on the Metabolic Response to Feeding in Pythons. J. Overgaard, J Anderson, T. Wang. Physiological and Biochemical Zoology. 75:4 July/August 2002

Responses of Python Gastrointestinal Regulatory Peptides to Feeding. S. Secor, D. Fehserfeld, J. Diamond, T. Adrian. Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences. 98:24 Nov 20/2001.

Gastric function and its contribution to the postprandial metabolic response of the Burmese python Python molurus

Jaleely you are also right in stating that shedding shows very true signs of healthy metabolic rates. As can be seen here in credible scientific research here:

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology

Feeding your ball three small rats is not a big deal once. Obviously, feeding it that way all the time is not good as it will get fat. But thats not what anyone was talking about here, was it? As always, this seems to be a result of miscommunication. Which is kind of funny as this all seems to have stemmed from what was supposed to be a funny thread. Jeez, lighten up guys!

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by jarich

First, I think we had already established in a separate thread that there was no justification for being rude, by anyone. This forum is for the sake of learning, for both beginner and expert alike. Calling people absurd or saying they dont know what they are talking about doesnt help to teach them anything. If you are an expert, then you have a responsibility to pass on that knowledge for the sake of the animal.

Second, in this case the "experts" are incorrect in their assessment and the "noob" has it right. The length of fasting has no direct correlation on metabolic rate in pythons. Therefore, their metabolic system is not shocked by this, they evolved to this situation directly. Feeding a python 3 rats after a long fast is not unhealthy. This is not my opinion or thoughts on my years of experience, but has been shown in scientific studies like these:

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JSTOR: An Error Occurred Setting Your User Cookie

Gastric function and its contribution to the postprandial metabolic response of the Burmese python Python molurus

Jaleely you are also right in stating that shedding shows very true signs of healthy metabolic rates. As can be seen here in credible scientific research here:

CSIRO PUBLISHING - Australian Journal of Zoology

Feeding your ball three small rats is not a big deal once. Obviously, feeding it that way all the time is not good as it will get fat. But thats not what anyone was talking about here, was it? As always, this seems to be a result of miscommunication. Which is kind of funny as this all seems to have stemmed from what was supposed to be a funny thread. Jeez, lighten up guys!

thanks for the link to the scientific papers mate

i gave my example of the diamond python a true cold weather python,can survive temps of zero degrees

diamonds eating habits can determine how long they will live,a fat diamonds a dead diamond

so how and when you feed them is very important

i wrongly made the assumption it was similar for ball pythons,which from what little i've read so far on your links prooves its not so

perfect example of why forums like these are good for all of us to learn from each other

cheers shaun

[jarich]

Totally true! And I think you are pretty much right in general about fat snakes being dead snakes, or any animal for that matter. Luckily that wasnt the problem for Jaleely.

Anyway, Im just drooling over some black bloods on kingsnake. After seeing the ones that another member on this forum had, I cant get them out of my mind.

[KORBIN5895]

I must apologize again. What I meant was you guys ALL care about your snakes and you also obviously care about how others care for their snakes. I didn't necessarily mean to lump all posters together nor was I looking to point anyone out. I really believe the hardcore herpers can teach us many important and valuable things. Also if you felt you were being kinda and informative while trying to point out something you felt was being done wrong or going to harm the snake well my post was directed at you. I am not looking to attack anyone and I definitely don't need to be a target.

Shaun I have always found what you have to say polite and informative

[jaleely]

jarich, you have the most diplomatic posts I've ever read...you're awesome! I try, but I always get worked up anyway : )

SO...just so we're clear...Jasper won't be having three rats a week. He is a healthy weight, and he's doing great and just about to go into shed, actually. The bird is fine too. lol

And yes, I didn't know to call it urates. In fact I obviously hadn't even differentiated. To me, "Poop=defecation=1. To remove (impurities, as in a chemical solution); clarify.
2. To void from the bowels."
But, now I know and I will use that term actually..so thank you for informing me. Really! Not being sarcastic.

Black Blood Pythons...they are pretty good looking! Check this one out...it's had more than three rats for sure!

http://www.proexotics.com/retail_pro...ig_3-22-02.jpg

[Aaron_S]

First of all, you obviously didn't read all my posts as I stated what the white things are called and I did leave a post detailing my feeding regime for my breeding snakes. Breeding snakes is a solid indication of healthy animals. They don't breed if they aren't.

Secondly, I read both of those links but neither discuss the effects of long term fasting. If there was in the first link could you please provide exact paragraphs for my reading? The second doesn't really state it either as it's just a very small article done 10 years ago.

Third, I will amend what I said and say that the snake had a very inactive metabolism. It was still there, thus why he shed and still passed urates.

Most snake species don't need 3 small - medium rats in a single feeding.

Also for your information, that black blood is most likely overweight even though that is a more robust snake species than ball pythons. On average bloods get to a 20 pound size in a four foot snake. That is how they are. Don't compare different species.

Lastly, I do not need to sugar coat anything for anyone. If you're putting a snake in jeopardy than I will say so without kiddie gloves. I also wasn't guessing. You ARE doing harm to your snake by overfeeding. Don't continue it or you'll develop fatty tissue around it's organs.

We as keepers have to realize we must regulate their in take. People only feed aboreal snakes 10 - 14 days as they tend to have a slower metabolism and don't burn it off quickly. We shouldn't just offer food until they don't take it as some just keep eating and will develop issues.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

First of all, you obviously didn't read all my posts as I stated what the white things are called and I did leave a post detailing my feeding regime for my breeding snakes. Breeding snakes is a solid indication of healthy animals. They don't breed if they aren't.

Secondly, I read both of those links but neither discuss the effects of long term fasting. If there was in the first link could you please provide exact paragraphs for my reading? The second doesn't really state it either as it's just a very small article done 10 years ago.

Third, I will amend what I said and say that the snake had a very inactive metabolism. It was still there, thus why he shed and still passed urates.

Most snake species don't need 3 small - medium rats in a single feeding.


Lastly, I do not need to sugar coat anything for anyone. If you're putting a snake in jeopardy than I will say so without kiddie gloves. I also wasn't guessing. You ARE doing harm to your snake by overfeeding. Don't continue it or you'll develop fatty tissue around it's organs.

Hmmmmm, are we having fun yet Aaron?

Ive put in bold the things that seem to need rectifying in your statements. You say someone else didnt read your statements closely, but it appears you were the one guilty of this in the first place. Jaleely did not state that she regularly fed her BP 3 rats on a regular basis, or that this was her feeding regimen. Yet you talk about her putting her animal in jeopardy due to fatty liver disease. When she corrected you, stating that she only did this one time because the animal had not eaten in quite some time, you switched to saying that would hurt it because it had fasted for so long.

In response to that change, I posted FOUR articles for you to read, although only two of those had links (again, it seems like you are the one who has trouble reading posts critically). The first two articles I posted you can find online at JSTOR, though I didnt put direct links in my post. The very first article directly details exactly why you are mistaken, so feel free to read it and PM me for any further help you might need in understanding the science behind it.

Also, an animal in shed has a very active metabolism. Again read the articles I provided and you will see that the metabolism in a python is sometimes actually more active when they shed than when they eat. Hard to believe, and I would not have thought it was true until I read the science behind it; still true though.

As far as breeding snakes being healthy snakes, this does not seem to be the truth. For instance, lets use the present example of fatty liver disease. An animal with fatty liver disease will breed just fine, for years in fact, until it dies prematurely. Breeding is an instinct so paramount that it surpasses health in many cases. Breeding is not the final word on health, it is more of a minimal indicator of health.

And lastly, no one asked you to "sugar coat" it Aaron. You can just as easily say the information without calling people names or attacking them personally. As a matter of fact, if you do it in a socially acceptable way, they are much more likely to actually use the information you have given them. And if youre point is to make the difference in the snakes life, then guess what? You first have to get through to the owner. I could walk up to someone and slap them in the face, and know that pretty much anything I say after isnt going to be well received. But if I walk up and say, "hey I noticed you doing that; but in my experience this might be a better way of doing it" then they are much more likely to actually take my advice. Therefore they are then much more likely to make a difference in the snakes life. What do you think?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by jarich

Hmmmmm, are we having fun yet Aaron?

Ive put in bold the things that seem to need rectifying in your statements. You say someone else didnt read your statements closely, but it appears you were the one guilty of this in the first place. Jaleely did not state that she regularly fed her BP 3 rats on a regular basis, or that this was her feeding regimen. Yet you talk about her putting her animal in jeopardy due to fatty liver disease. When she corrected you, stating that she only did this one time because the animal had not eaten in quite some time, you switched to saying that would hurt it because it had fasted for so long.

In response to that change, I posted FOUR articles for you to read, although only two of those had links (again, it seems like you are the one who has trouble reading posts critically). The first two articles I posted you can find online at JSTOR, though I didnt put direct links in my post. The very first article directly details exactly why you are mistaken, so feel free to read it and PM me for any further help you might need in understanding the science behind it.

Also, an animal in shed has a very active metabolism. Again read the articles I provided and you will see that the metabolism in a python is sometimes actually more active when they shed than when they eat. Hard to believe, and I would not have thought it was true until I read the science behind it; still true though.

As far as breeding snakes being healthy snakes, this does not seem to be the truth. For instance, lets use the present example of fatty liver disease. An animal with fatty liver disease will breed just fine, for years in fact, until it dies prematurely. Breeding is an instinct so paramount that it surpasses health in many cases. Breeding is not the final word on health, it is more of a minimal indicator of health.

And lastly, no one asked you to "sugar coat" it Aaron. You can just as easily say the information without calling people names or attacking them personally. As a matter of fact, if you do it in a socially acceptable way, they are much more likely to actually use the information you have given them. And if youre point is to make the difference in the snakes life, then guess what? You first have to get through to the owner. I could walk up to someone and slap them in the face, and know that pretty much anything I say after isnt going to be well received. But if I walk up and say, "hey I noticed you doing that; but in my experience this might be a better way of doing it" then they are much more likely to actually take my advice. Therefore they are then much more likely to make a difference in the snakes life. What do you think?

I am having fun. Thanks for asking.

To set the record straight I did not imply that this was an ongoing feeding regime of hers, you are putting words into my mouth. I stated that it was a bad idea as they are "shocking" the system.

I read those two articles and they have NOTHING to do with fasting. I have yet to read the first ones without links as I don't currently have the time but I will and I will admit to my mistakes if I am indeed wrong. Currently, as it stands, the other articles have to do with metabolic rates and how snakes digest.

Where is your science behind the shedding metabolism? I can see how they can be more active during this time but I'd like to see your facts.

How about you experiment by attempting to feed your breeding females a very infrequent diet and see how they do. Breeding is in fact a good indicator if an animal is healthy or not. It isn't the end all be all of indicators but it is still a good one.

Lastly, everyone asked me to not be so harsh so I don't see how "no one" asked me to not sugar coat things. I'll tell you a story. Once upon a time long ago on this very forum I tried correcting someone on something that they knew far more about than me. I got put in my place just as I have done here. I apologized for being wrong and what I said and learned from then on to just read and learn from others before I go spouting misinformation.

I'm going to stop talking to you now since you're the person who believes escaped snakes is just another part of the hobby.

[jarich]

If we are having fun then why stop talking to me?! And no, I didn't say escapes were a regular part of snake keeping. What I did say was that it does sometimes happen and we shouldn't say someone is a bad keeper just because of an escape. I've had one escape, you said you had one too. I don't think it makes either of us irresponsible keepers just because of one escape. Do you?

As for the articles, they all talk about metabolism and feeding, and the first is exclusively about fasting. As regards shedding and metabolism specifically, that last article details it in full. (Sloughing is another way of saying shedding) And that's not a "one paragraph article", that one paragraph is the abstract. An abstract is a one paragraph synopsis of the full article. I'm starting to feel a little like I'm sort of a bully if I'm having to explain this.*

Ok look, I'm really not wanting to start any fight man. Honestly I just wanted you to lighten up on the way you dole out your information, that's all. You seem to genuinely care about snakes and that's great. Maybe just try to be a little more empathetic towards the person you are trying to help teach.*

However this discussion of metabolic rates and fasting/feeding is pretty interesting and applicable to the forum. So how about we start a new thread that deals with that topic exclusively? We can get rid of the added baggage of all this other nonsense and just talk about the evidence as its displayed in those articles and any others that people find. It seems like it could be a pretty cool and informative thing if we go about it right. Deal?

[spots]

We got to get you two together in person, to see some real action. LOL