Amazed at what I saw at the pet store today.... - Page 4

dank7oo · 08-24-04, 12:25 PM

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A simple check of fecal matter, if worms and other parasites are present it is more then likely a wc.

But would all WC animals have parisites?

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Other things to look for is scarring as most wc do get into more confrentations then cb

Again, do all WC have scars?

Just a few thoughts; maybe telling CB from WC is harder than you thought.

Jason

Samba · 08-24-04, 01:29 PM

Pet Store Responds to Complaints... http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showt...threadid=16315)

Sometimes you can make a difference, but at best it'll be temporary. Sorry I didn't read the other responses, I'm busy here at work.. hope this will give you ideas... sorry if I repeated info... =)

Chris_Anderson · 08-25-04, 10:04 AM

Not all WC animals have scars or parasites and CB animals can have parasites without the breeder/keeper being neglectful or keeping in bad conditions. A lot of herp vets recommend fecals to be done every 6 months to a year, even on CB animals.

Chris

panther_dude · 08-25-04, 11:23 AM

Yes I know not all wc have these traits. In fact I dont beleave I said that all of them do. I even explained how shipping with cage mates could cause scarring. Also of course the vet wants you in every six months he wants your money. Do you Chris take all your chams to the vet every six months?
Maybe you could expain how a cham kept in the perfect atmosphere can get worms. I just find it alittle hard to beleave. Unless they come from wc insects I dont see how they could just show up out of no where.

(edited ~ DragnDrop)

Wade

p.s I think I was almost dead on when it comes to comparing prices of cb to wc. But of course there are always the jerks who like ripping people off no matter where the cham is from.

DragnDrop · 08-25-04, 02:57 PM

Even 'CB' insects can and do carry parasites and/or eggs that can be passed on to the predator. That's why it's recommended to get fecals done regularly. Even our farmed crickets are a main source of intestinal worms.

How many people have their chams in a perfect environment? Even the best cham keepers have them in a 'good compromise' environment at best.

panther_dude · 08-25-04, 04:17 PM

well to me the perfect environment is having the proper lighting temps and humidity levels. If you cannot acheive that then you shouldnt own a chameleon. Where do cb insects get these bugs from? I dont see how. wc yes I can understand. Unless the people breeding these insects are keeping them in horrible condition with fungi and stuff in their environment. I doubt the cricket foods we use contain these parasites. Again I just feel Its a money grab for the vets. Also performing a fecal exam yourself is not to hard. Need a microscope and some plastic bags really.

Now if you can point me out to more then a few people who have had problemes out of no-where with parasites let me know. And I might belave you. Who can tell its from the insects, its probably something to do with their husbandry technique. Like letting fecal matter sit on the bottom of the cage for days or weeks on end. I myself clean the cages daily, twice daily if need be. I realy cant see parasites coming from thin air. There has got to be something these people are doing wrong. Standing water for instance could inhibit parrasites along with many other health conserns.
I know of some ant species containing internal parasites. Maybe you could direct me to a link saying cb crickets also contain parasites. I'm sorry but its got to be more then someone just telling me about facts. I need to read about it, and see it with my own eyes. For all I know you could have heard that from someone else, who heard it somewheres else, who heard it from a rabbit I have no idea. I need factual information.

Cruciform · 08-25-04, 07:21 PM

Panther_Dude,

Not meant as a flame, but if the owner of that store was trying to rip you off so badly why did you ever go back there for him to ask you how the chams he never sold you were doing?

Brock · 08-26-04, 01:13 AM

Wade, I like your idea of $500, then $200 after a quiz, I like that, good thinking.

Now, crickets can and DO have parasites, someone told me all crickets have pinworms. Reptiles are hardy animals, they can deal with a lot, so it's not much of a problem in lots of cases, but bacterium and parasites can definately be there.

Heating and humidity and lighting are not the most important. I've heard of breeders having the best success in their basements keeping their panthers and veileds very very cool. Even cold, I've had success with cooler temps. It's like a ziplock bag, when something's colder, it doesn't age as fast, it's preserved. Same idea for why you should cool them at night, but it doesn't JUST have to be night. Another thing is lighting, I HATE how people buy $7 heat bulbs and $40 UVB bulbs. I haven't had a SINGLE problem in 4.5 years wtih .35cent heat bulbs and $1 UV lights from Canadian Tire. Even constant humidity is bad, it causes lung infections if it's too high and too constant. And to add on to lighting, I've heard of people cooking their chameleons to death near windows, and Ospreys picking them off outside on the lawn or tree. In my opinion, the three most important things are food, light, and water. I'd say most deaths are caused by dehydration. If you have a variety of food, feild plankton (wc feeders), as well as a healthy mix of five different staple foods (crickets, roaches, silkworms, mealworms, pinkies, waxworms, butterworms, pill bugs) then you're going to have one happy chameleon. Praying mantids, stick bugs, moths, worms, snails, slugs, it's all about variety, you don't even need to dust if you have a variety (gutloaded staples). And light is the obvious one, most reptiles need a basking spot to properly digest food and regulate body tempurature.

Just a quick question, how did handing care sheets out to all the stores in your city go?

-Brock

panther_dude · 08-26-04, 10:00 AM

Yes thank you brock. Now what did I say about people telling peole about something. I need factual information. From a scientist or someone in the biz for decades. As far as keeping them in cool or cold climates I wouldnt agree. Your telling me at cold temps a panther will live longer? Again Ill need some factual information. If I beleaved everything I heard I dont know what would happen. I know Jacksons can be kept cool as they live at high elevations in the mountains, panthers live in de forested areas, even near towns and people. Madagascar has a very warm climate and yes I beleave a cool period at night is needed for success. What is the lowest temps youve kept your panthers at?

What UV lights at canadian tire are you talking about? I dont know of any that contain uvb. But then again I dont have a uvb reader. Not to say your liing I would just like some real information. You telling me someone told you about it doesnt really help. Even articles on the web can be posted by anyone, if they know what they are talking about or not.

wade

Chris_Anderson · 08-26-04, 03:16 PM

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Originally posted by panther_dude
I think I was almost dead on when it comes to comparing prices of cb to wc. But of course there are always the jerks who like ripping people off no matter where the cham is from.

Referring to:

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Anouther factor would be adult chams being sold for cheap are usually wc. As cb adults usually cost more because of the amount of time and food spent to get them to that size.

This is not a very reliable method to determine WC vs. CB. With many chameleons, WC breeder adults are very valuable. WC adult Ambilobe F. pardalis, for instance, are very expensive. Breeders are very interested I getting their own bloodlines that are unrelated to other breeders and as a result, these animals can be very costly. You simply have to know enough background on the species you are looking for and the market for that species to understand how to view advertised animals. Some species you can almost be totally sure without any other information that they are CB, others, you need to understand the market for the species, the frequency by which they are bred and other factors to accurately determine WC vs. CB.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Also of course the vet wants you in every six months he wants your money.

Its recommended to get your teeth cleaned every six months. It won't kill you if you don't but it is considered to be an appropriate precaution with the given risks. Same with the fact that you are supposed to get health checkups and physicals regularly before a problem occurs. You've taken the responsiblility to be responsible for the life of your chameleons, take the appropriate precautions with their health. You just need to locate a qualified vet and get a good working relationship with them. I highly recommend you take a look at the following article on this with chameleons: http://www.chameleonnews.com/year200...erinarian.html

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Do you Chris take all your chams to the vet every six months?

Wade, if you even started to do some of the things I do with my animals, I could say you, and anyone else, would have a much improved chance at success when faced with what could often be a high likelihood of death. For instance, on many of my chameleons, I have had complete blood assays preformed while they are healthy so that in the event of a problem, I have a standard reference of what the animal's blood chemistry should look like. There are many precautions that you can and should take. The ultimate requirement with regard to which precautions you didn't take is being able to stand up and be able to say, "I failed and my animals died because I didn't take the available and recommended precautions," because many of the deaths we look at every day are completely preventable.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Maybe you could expain how a cham kept in the perfect atmosphere can get worms. I just find it alittle hard to beleave. Unless they come from wc insects I dont see how they could just show up out of no where.

Yes, I can in fact! The only way for our cricket feeder suppliers to ensure that parasites and not present in their feeders is if their entire facility was treated like a hazmat facility. Since crickets and other feeder insects are only the initial carrier in the life cycles of many parasites, they are generally not the source of reproduction of them. Their eggs or larva are deposited in soils, foods and other areas and are easily transmitted to a subsequent middle host (like the crickets) and then transferred to whatever eats them. It is common knowledge to lizard keepers that their feeders can easily transmit these parasites without there being any fault to the supplier or keeper. To minimize such transfer, it is best to keep your animals in clean conditions but this does not eliminate the potential exchange. I can point you to a number of well known reptile vets and microbiologists who can and will more completely discuss the process and the recommended precautions surrounding this. Feel free to contact me privately for these if you want them.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
(edited ~~ DragnDrop)

Darn, I would have loved to have seen what I missed. Wade, feel free to keep copies of what you post for me incase something is deleted you want me to discuss with you. I'd be happy to go head to head with you "privately" on whatever it is that needs to be deleted for the civility of a public forum.

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Originally posted by DragnDrop
How many people have their chams in a perfect environment? Even the best cham keepers have them in a 'good compromise' environment at best.

Excellent point Hilde!

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Originally posted by panther_dude
well to me the perfect environment is having the proper lighting temps and humidity levels.

This is one reason I personally feel you have a long way to go before you even try to start up your mass breeding projects. If only it were that simple.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Unless the people breeding these insects are keeping them in horrible condition with fungi and stuff in their environment.

We are talking about parasites, not fungi. As I discussed above, the vectors for transmission of parasitic eggs and larva are very difficult to control and presence of such parasites in farmed crickets is not uncommon.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Also performing a fecal exam yourself is not to hard. Need a microscope and some plastic bags really.

Most of us, including you, do not have the qualifications to perform accurate fecal exams. You are not able to determine with accuracy the presence of all parasites in their different stages of life. We aren't only talking about intestinal worms when we talk about parasites. We are talking about protists, eggs and other very difficult to detect parasites. Do you have access to a microscope powerful enough to view all these parasites or the dyes needed to see many of them? I highly doubt you know much of what you are doing and don't think it is good for you to sit here and mouth off against vets and speak for private cures when you are not experienced or trained in properly performing what you are saying is so easy!

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Now if you can point me out to more then a few people who have had problemes out of no-where with parasites let me know.

I know many people who have experienced parasite loads in CB animals fed CB food sources.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Who can tell its from the insects

A microbiologist or an entomologist can.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
Standing water for instance could inhibit parrasites along with many other health conserns.

Let me post a question to you then. Where are the parasites coming from to start with? How are they getting to the standing water in the first place? How are they getting into the enclosure? The Answer: the vectors by which these parasites are transmitted are almost impossible to control in an environment outside of a hazmat facility or a dustfree microchip facility.

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Originally posted by panther_dude
I need to read about it, and see it with my own eyes.

That's a little hypocritical considering the other day you said you don't like to trust books and would rather talk to experienced keepers...Go to a university library and do some research. There is a wealth of information out there on parasites. You can also get in touch with a microbiologist and/or a qualified and experienced reptile vet. If possible, get in touch with ones that work with herps themselves. I know a number from other forums and lists if you need help.

Quote:

Originally posted by panther_dude
I know Jacksons can be kept cool as they live at high elevations in the mountains, panthers live in de forested areas, even near towns and people. Madagascar has a very warm climate and yes I beleave a cool period at night is needed for success.

Interesting that on another recent thread you were telling me that you don't have to know much about their natural history to breed and keep them correctly...

Cool temps are fine as long as they are not too cool and there is access to a sufficient basking spot for warmth. I actually prefer to keep my enclosures with a significant temperature and humidity gradient so the animal can decide where they are most comfortable.

Chris

panther_dude · 08-26-04, 06:17 PM

Ok Chris this is the last time I am going to tell you to back the @#&# off. I notice you dont post to anyone elses conserns but mine. What is the probleme you have with me? I am not intersested in your point of view and dont think I ever will be. Again back off or I just wont post here anymore. Thats all I have to say. Go bugg someone else. It seems others can make mistakes but I cannot for some reason. PISSS OFF

Oh ya dragon drop if you edit im out

V.hb · 08-26-04, 06:19 PM

SPCA doesn't care, trust me i've been through it. Just dont buy from the store, period.

Brock · 08-26-04, 07:05 PM

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Ok Chris this is the last time I am going to tell you to back the @#&# off. I notice you dont post to anyone elses conserns but mine. What is the probleme you have with me? I am not intersested in your point of view and dont think I ever will be. Again back off or I just wont post here anymore. Thats all I have to say. Go bugg someone else. It seems others can make mistakes but I cannot for some reason. PISSS OFF

Grown up talk? Chris Anderson is the most grown up person here, man oh man. This post ^^^ says it all. Wade, there's an old quote that goes: 'Argument is the exchange of ignorance and stupidity; conversation is the exchange of intelligence and reason.'

Chris is the latter, you're the former. This post is pretty much done.

-Brock

DragnDrop · 08-26-04, 07:05 PM

I don't think anyone is really being picked on. Some people accept an answer faster than others. The ones that insist on needing more proof will have more answered directed towards them. Since Chris probably has more cham experience than most or all of the regulars combined, he's the most likely one reply in detail to questions. Does that mean he's picking on anyone? It seems he's taking the time to actually reply in detail, not just a quick sentence or two. If there's a request for more info, more proof, more anything and he's the only one with that info, then don't jump on him for doing as requested.

This thread has strayed far from the original topic. It's also gotten a bit heated a few times but things were smoothed out and calmed down, so I left things alone for the most part. There's a lot of good info here, too good to be lost by removing the thread completely. How be we cool things a bit?

dank7oo · 08-26-04, 09:37 PM

I have a few ideas that I will PM you with on Monday Hilde (crazy busy until then). Its late though and I gotta catch some Z's.

Jason