best first venomous snake - Page 4

Bartman · 03-05-04, 08:00 PM

yea thats what i was thinking when i read ur post gregg...you can see these snakes with lots of scares from eating live pray but i just figured maybe for venemous snakes, since most of them do the catch and release method, they wouldnt be indangour..like they bite quick and let go just to invenimate. Saw that on tv, it was awesome

Gregg M · 03-05-04, 08:12 PM

Actually El Barto,
Gaboons and rhino vipers do not let their prey go........ They sink their fangs in and hold it there.......... Like I said though it is a pretty rapid death so there is very little danger of a mouse or rat bitting it....... Not to say it cant happen....... I have just never seen it happen.....

Bartman · 03-05-04, 09:02 PM

cool!
Yea i was just watching some tv show and they showed how, i think a cobra, bit the mouse really quickly and flew backward and watched it die and then ate it...cool stuff

Jeff Hathaway · 03-06-04, 12:46 AM

Can't say I've ever seen a gaboon or puff eat. The statement wasn't regarding gaboons or puffs, however, it was a general statement about feeding live, which I (and many others) disagree with pretty strongly. Not to say that I've never done it, but it should be avoided where possible, in my opinion.

Since you asked, what I keep is a broad mix. We have the most complete captive collection of native Ontario herp species found anywhere. This includes eastern massasaugas, which are the ONLY venomous species we work with, because we believe that the work we do with them justifies keeping a venomous species. Beyond that we have a mix of exotic species, mostly common pet types. The most 'interesting' from a hobby point of view would probably be eastern indigos; the rest are quite familiar- burms, boa constrictors, BRBs, balls, rats, bulls, milks, blue-tongue & prehensile tailed skinks, leopard & fat-tailed geckos, etc. All told, about 125 specimens of ~50 species/subspecies. Essentially, beyond the native stuff, good examples of 'appropriate pets' & 'inappropriate pets'. Species which are not suitable for public interaction are rarely found in our collection, for obvious reasons. Other than a couple of Phelsuma in the living room, all of these are maintained for use in our educational programs.

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Gregg M · 03-06-04, 08:15 AM

Very cool Jeff,
I must say I admire people that do the work you do with reptiles........ I wish I had the time to do educational programs...... How is it working with those little massasaugas???? From what I understand they are pretty placid snakes........ I have had a few western massasaugas........ They were really good to work with........ Pretty prolific little guys......... One of my favorite non hots you listed would be your indigos....... Are you keeping any garters????? They are my absolute favorite non hot actually.........LOL........ I keep some melanistic and albino checkered.........

Retic chic · 03-06-04, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kao1001
venomous permits aren't obtainable in canada.

Permits ARE obtainable in Canada in the areas where they are restricted. BC, Manitoba and Ontario are relatively accepting of the keeping of hots, except those cities and municipalities where they have by-laws in place.

Alberta and Saskatchewan require a zoo license or research permit to allow the keeping of venomous reptiles. These are easy to apply for, but difficult to obtain. Facilities must be constructed to a specified standard, and annual inspections are required for the renewal of the license. Done right, it is possible, and expensive.

Sheila

Mustangrde1 · 03-06-04, 10:10 AM

Bart. I have seen my Cobras and others do both bite and retreat and bite and hold on same with some mambas and even boomslangs. It is not always a given how they will react at any given feeding. Feeding live vs dead I have mixed opinions on. For Boides and Colubrids I preffer to always prekill just before throwing it in the cage so it has no chance to harm my animals. Where with my hots it is always live prey as I stand by and watch to insure safety. I am on the side that venom does play a role in digestion and I have a few hots that just will not eat prekilled even if you make it do the rat dance to try and fool them. Frozen thawed is something I do not like unless it was done by me or someone i trust. This in large part is do to over time in a freezer proteins can start to break down and all your feeding at that point is a furball. I have read a couple studies on this and tend to agree with it. Feeding live has risk without a doubt and one of the wourse for the keeper is someone bites and it dies in the hide box and it doesn't eat, the next morning you walk in and its not a very pleasent smell then you have to get it out.

Jeff Hathaway · 03-06-04, 10:16 AM

Hey Gregg,

Thanks for the kind words! It would be hard for me to compare the massasaugas to anything other hot as I have little personal experience with others, but I do find the massasaugas quite easy to work with. Very timid snakes, generally. Adults do seem to hook reasonably well, though they can certainly manage to slide off when they choose. Babies/ juveniles are more annoying to hook, but I suspect that is true with other species.

The indigos are definitely favorites with people who know anything about herps! Big and messy, though:-) Yes, we have garters, and I quite like them too. Currently- 5 normal plus 1 melanistic easterns, 1 red-sided, and 1 Butler's.

It is great doing educational programs. I highly recommend it for anyone who is interested. For us, it is no problem finding the time (except on summer weekends when we're heavily booked!) as it is our full time occupation. It is a tough way to earn a living though!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

Mustangrde1 · 03-06-04, 10:22 AM

Jeff. I have a major problem with petshops selling some of the major constrictors to kids and families of young children. I was curious do you keep examples for people to see of the cute little babies vs the full grown adult so people can get an idea of why some of these constrictors do not make good pets?

Gregg M · 03-06-04, 11:08 AM

Good point Scott,
I feel that large constrictor should only be kept by experianced keepers also....... It is all too easy for some kid to go out and buy a baby burm or retic....... Honestly, I feel there should be a permit system for large boids as they are not good pets....... It is a shame how many of them wind up on a zoos door step because the person that bought it as a cute little baby realized it was getting too big to control and keep........ Not to mention the feeding cost....... Jeff, this might be something you would want to look into for your program if you do not do it already.......

jay72 · 03-06-04, 12:35 PM

Here in Florida we now have large constrictors established in Everglades National Park as a result of people releasing them after they get to big. I feel there shoud be a permit system as well. We recieve "wild caught" Burmese Pythons from Park Rangers several times a year.

Sloane Russeck

Jeff Hathaway · 03-06-04, 03:33 PM

On the large constrictor subject, absolutely. We have 2 burms, and 2 boa constrictors (have had more), and virtually every program we present features one of them in the 'inappropriate pet' role (as opposed to the corns, milks, balls, etc.) All of our large constrictors have come from people who no longer wanted them, either as donations or occasionally we've paid a bit, except for one burm from an animal control department.

The enclosures we're currently working on (see my thread in the enclosure forum) as part of our future public facility are for these and the iguanas we're sure to end up with. We've tentatively called this area the 'hall of horrors', not because the animals are scary but because of the horrible things that can happen when people buy them in pet shops.

In truth, however, I think boa constrictors aren't unreasonable for people with some experience and resources. I just hate seeing them in every pet shop. And I'm a big fan of permit systems in general for large constrictors (3m (10')+), large lizards such as nile monitors, crocodilians, and venomous.

The Everglades situation isn't good, and I suspect it will get much worse over the next decade:-(

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

jay72 · 03-06-04, 03:54 PM

While we are on th the subject. I feel that Crocodilians in all states should be subject to strict llicensing rules like we have in Florida. It is a tragedy(in my opinion) that Alligators and certain Croc species are sold in pet stores. The majoity of people who buy those cute little gators are not equiped to deal with them when they get bigger and its the animal that always suffers. We have a rescue Gator now thats face is deformed because the previous owner kept him in too small of an enclosure.

Sloane Russeck

Mustangrde1 · 03-06-04, 03:57 PM

The situation in South Florida is sickening at times when you concider the large and well established number of species and the population that are thriving and breeding. It is safe to say catching 200 brown basilisk or 100 Iguanas a night is not hard if your motivated. The burm popualtion growing and doing well. Floridas invasives are growing in number and species. It doesnt take a brain surgeon or Rocket scientist to figure we have a great climate for them just look at all the old people who migrate here lol.

http://www.wildflorida.org/critters/...asp?taxclass=R

I think this really needs to be updated.

Gregg M · 03-07-04, 10:08 AM

Hey Scott,
I think they forgot about the King Cobras....... If I catch one When I come and see you in April, I am shipping back to my house.....LOL