Parasite transmision

[SHvar]

The tecnology used in veternary science to reptiles is based mostly on commonly kept snakes, and turtles, and lizards. The parasites forund in monitors (internal) are completely different than whats found in snakes etc (except a few), the metabolisms and physiology of snakes a nd tutrltes and monitors are all different, so therefore only treatment and technology based off of monitors is useful to monitors and treating them. As Steeve said how can you suggest a treatment for an animal when the vets dont understand them. I have found 1 vet in miles of where I live that has a practice and is listed as a good herp vet by 2 independant websites that are based worldwide. He has a different view than the attitude to treat every symptom with meds, he believes with lizards that they need to be treated by proper husbandry first and afterwards look for symptoms. One point youve had parasites treated on one monitor youve had now for what 2 months? None the less, thats not enough time to find out if the treatment was sucessful in reducing, eliminating parasites, or causing organ damage to the animal. In a few years you may see results of these things, in 6 months or so you may see another positive test for the same parasites as the meds dont kill them some times, as a matter of fact they sometimes cause them to boom in population because their host was endangered by a poison. There are som e parasites dangerous to some hosts because they were not evolved to handle them, ie from different areas of the world, or that were species specific at one time and now need to evovloe to a new similar host. You know that 6 out of every 10 humans on the planet have pen sized parasitic worms all through their body but dont know it? They can cause harm by rupturing your bladder when they disconnect to reproduce, how healthy are you feeling???
In a few years or several years or even months when you animal dies have a good herp vet do a complete attopsy to find any parasites and let us know if the animals died of liver or kidney complications.

This is again why I always say save your money and buy captive bred animals only, there is a whole world of difference you need to experience to see why I say this, and one good point no parasites.

[skinheaddave]

I don't know if you were refering to me, but neither of the monitors I currently have (one I've had for about a year now, the other for about a week) have been treated for parasites.

Yes, a lot of the dangerous parasites are dangerous because they have not co-evolved with the host. That being said, all parasites come with a cost by definition. In some interactions it is negligable, in others deadly, in most somewhere inbetween.

Buying captive bred is always a good idea, though it does not ensure an absense of parasites and is impossible with many species.

Cheers,
Dave

[mbayless]

Hi All,
This is a fascinating thread here, and very enlightening to me. This week, a foot long V. rudicollis evacuated a fully adult tapeworm longer than itself into its water basin; the keeper gave me the tapeworm (in alcohol) so I can send it on to a Ph.D. who will identify to species level for me...and maybe note-worthy - who knows?

Anyway, this healthy juvenile V. rudicollis expelled this live adult tapeworm....without meds of any kind....this fits with what has been said here; in light that V. albigularis remove their own ticks from their own bodies, and in light of V. albigularis able to vomit up 100+ pin worms (I saw this ~1990) on its own, they seem to know how to take care of themselves, parasite loads and so on - and may help explain some reports of vegetation matter ingested (as dogs eat grass when they have a belly ache - grass acts like glass, breaking up stomach matter to pulp) may explain a pharmocological aspect of Varanus behavior never before thought of, and that is they might ingest plant matter to alter PH and add anti-biotic/meds to their own systems to alleviate parasite loads!?? Yes this is theory, but it might explain a few things too...just thinking out loud; maybe I shouldn't but these forums are for excvhanging thoughts, no matter how goofy they might be, right?
cheers,
markb

[SHvar]

Kill their animals by treating symptoms not the real problem.
You have no real knowledge on the subject of what parasitic treatments and parasites do or can do, period!! 2 months ago all you knew about monitors was that you tried a leash on yours and that in 1 year your medium sized monitor only grew from 15-25 inches.
You can quote the same line all you want from that book (the one you named was a lousey one at that) and so can anyone else, but in a few years or so tell us what happens to your monitor, or tell us in 10 years what happened to it, an autopsy (a very detailed one at that), when youve buried a few youll start to know why you did it and that it helps to understand what the real problems are not a quick and poisonous treatment.
This conversation is done, quit argueing with Steeve on this, hes forgotten more in less than 1 year about monitors than youll ever know about them.
After all you cant teach someone anything when theyve got a wall up to block the world out.
Youve used the terms everybody, the experts, all of those knowledgeable people, and other terms but who are these people you mention??? Forget it, Im done with this.

[skinheaddave]

SHVar,

I would serious consider actually reading my posts before you open your mouth. You seem to be taking my arguments not for what they say but what you would like them to say. Steve seems to understand what I'm getting at, so don't tell me what I can and can't discuss with him.

And as for the "experts" etc., I am not talking about experts in captive husbandry or vetrenarian care, since I am providing absolutely no specifics on the treatment of monitor lizards. I am recommending absolutely nothing to people beyond the idea of consulting with more than one source. If you need a reference on the idea that parasites have a cost associated with them, I'd recommend a highschool biology book -- since I believe that is covered even at that basic level. If you want a more thorough treatment, I'd recommend looking into one or more of the following texts:

Noble E.R., Noble G.A., Schad G.A. & MacInnes A.J. 1989. Parasitology _ the biology of animal parasites (6th edition) Leá & Febiger, London, U.K. 574 pages.

Shmidt, G.D. & Roberts, L.S. 1999. Foundations of Parasitology (6th edition), McGraw Hill, U.S.A. 670 pages.

Smmuel W.M., Pybus, M.J. & Kocan A.A.(eds.) 2001. Parasitic Diseases of Wild Mammals (2nd edition), Iowa State University Press, Ames, U.S.A. 559 pages.

all of which are used for the parasitology course at my university. You might also want to check out the Journal of Parasitology. Remember, all you need to verify to understand my claims is that parasites have a cost and that some of the costs are not negligable -- since that is all that I have said.

And if you want to go into post history, I would refer you to your own posts on kingsnake less than a year ago that suggested that vet care could be beneficial.

Cheers,
Dave

[reptiguy123]

I completely agree with Dave. I am quite annoyed that he spends so much time typing these big messages and giving information and sources (for the sole purpose to save the lives of herps, which is a good enough reason for me!) and nobody listens to him or at best argues with him. I think that the best thing would be to stop and read what others have typed, or else don't post a thread at all!

[Siretsap]

Reptiles can live with certain parasites all their lives in the wild without it affecting them till the point of death.

The problem with people who believe that since they have it in the wild, it shouln't matter that much in captivity is they don't fully understand how the parasite cycles work.

Most parasites we think reptiles could live with without problems (certain worms) lay eggs that are then extracted from the host's body by it's excrements. In the wild, chances the animal would walk twice in front of it's poop and lick it are very slim. In your restrained enclosure, the chances are greatly increased. This means taht your reptile licks it's poop, ingurges the eggs leading to an incresed amount of parasites in it's system.

Same thing with the parasites who have the eggs hatch out of the system, the worms can crawl through the lizard's skin and continue to propagate like this. Before you know it, your reptile is infected with a much higher dose of parasites than they would have in the wild, and often they system can't handle such a big amount of parasites at once.

All this means it is important to treat your reptiles to clean their systems as soon as you realise they are infected.

[SHvar]

"I am not talking about experts in captive husbandry or vetrenarian care"
" since I am providing absolutely no specifics on the treatment of monitor lizards."
" I am recommending absolutely nothing to people beyond the idea of consulting with more than one source. "

Read your own quotes, I wont even comment.

"If you need a reference on the idea that parasites have a cost associated with them, I'd recommend a highschool biology book"

A high school biology book gives no specifics as to species, host, but states that a parasite is usually species specific as well does not harm its host as it would not benefit to do so.


"Smmuel W.M., Pybus, M.J. & Kocan A.A.(eds.) 2001. Parasitic Diseases of Wild Mammals (2nd edition), Iowa State University Press, Ames, U.S.A. 559 pages."

Parasitic diseases of wild mammals, I wont even comment, you should know reptiles and mammal have completely different parasites, not even close to each other. I believe I quoted earlier that 6-7 of 10 people worldwide carry an infestation of pen sized worms around and the only way to know is when they break lose to mate and on rare ocaision they rupture your bladder wall. But thats the harm they do.

"Remember, all you need to verify to understand my claims is that parasites have a cost and that some of the costs are not negligable -- since that is all that I have said."

Your claims were that some parasites can harm or kill their host, so they should be identified and treated medically. If the animal in question suffers from health problems associated with parasites they are suffering from severe stress, dehydration, lack of food, etc, all of which are husbandry related at that point it is beneficial to get the animal into a proper stress free, recovery and healthy before suggesting any antiparasitic.

"And if you want to go into post history, I would refer you to your own posts on kingsnake less than a year ago that suggested that vet care could be beneficial."


Yes, lets read what the subject of that post was. An eggbound female monitor at between the 4-6 week point. I suggested that a GOOD HERP VET remove the eggs before they become rotten or infect the animal killing it, I saved one of mine just before that from the same thing, again from improper nesting (why I said not to get dirt thats recycled tree bark from hardware stores). The individual didnt take the advice and what happened at week 6, it died. Just as I warned as I have Dan Turners Video which he had the same thing happen. I was given advice from 2 other sources at the 2-3 week point on this Frank Retes who by the way was an absolute gentleman over the phone, and aggreed with my other reference Rob Faust to get them removed in a week or 2 at the latest, and that it should never take that long to lay.

I have never said anything against vet care or treatment, except when they want to treat internal parasites on a monitor (really any animal) thats sick from bad husbandry, your vet after all cannot treat the actual problem (unlesss he takes your animal away), he can tell you what it is you have to do to make those changes, he can treat the symptoms.
And you said a few posts ago that you have had one animal treated for parasites, to reference that and it not be a monitor negates it from this subject, unless you have treated a monitor.

[SHvar]

"I am quite annoyed that he spends so much time typing these big messages and giving information and sources (for the sole purpose to save the lives of herps, which is a good enough reason for me!) and nobody listens to him or at best argues with him. "

He gave the first source to back up any claim other than the worst monitor book ever written as a source, he mentioned experience with one parasitic treatment but not the subject at hand a MONITOR being treated. 1 of 3 sources was a high school biology book, one was a MAMMAL parasite book, one was on parasites in general. Read his posts carefully I have, its my posts he misquotes as to vet care, Ive said nothing against proper vet care but against antiparasitic treatment with medicines on an animal that needs to be put in proper conditions to fix the problem not make it worse by poisoning it.

"I think that the best thing would be to stop and read what others have typed, or else don't post a thread at all!"

I aggree completely, you both need to read whats being posted and respond to that.


__________________

[skinheaddave]

I am deleting this response. I think people can read through all this and make their own decisions. It has become clear that you are unwilling to look into parasitology and thus will not be convinced that parasites can cause harm. Thus, I am done. You can do what you do and I'll do what I do.

Cheers,
Dave

[skinheaddave]

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[mbayless]

Hi Dave and Shvar,
If you both would like a in-depth listings of Varanus-related materials directed at Varanus and other reptiles, let me know - I have mostly African as that is more readily available and more studies on them have been made for last 100 years since discovery of Malaria, but I also have S.E. Asia/PNG/Australia papers too...

markb

[reptiguy123]

Hi Mark,
I would like to find more information about savannah monitors, if possible. Thanks

[SHvar]

Give me some examples of Albigularis papers, studies and all others Exanthematicus, Niloticus, Ornatus, etc. Ill send you the money for them anytime. Just need some subject listings to pick from I guess, any info you have is always welcome to my collection and for future reference, I enjoy reading from good sources. Did the new African species get named yet or any ideas when youll get around to it? I tried to get a pic of that yellow ornates tongue (pink and blue) but it seemed impossible, now its in Illinois. Email me with a list of papers available on these animals, especialy Albigularis.

Thank you
Shawn

[mbayless]

Hi Shvar,
My subject headings for each species is: Activity, Age, Anatomy, Behavior, Biogeography, Breeding, captivity, Conservation, Diet, Ecology, Feeding behavior, Growth, Health, Longevity, Morphology, Necropsy, Physiology, (as-) Prey, Sexing, Size, Taxonomy, Teeth. I have listings for most species under these headings - so take your pick. Of course for african varanid, 100's - 1000's of citations/cards for, others like Glebopalma there is not as much, but I do have indexes for ALL species, and a few unknown ones too....
cheers,
markb