Thread closed? (forbidden discussion topics)

[J-Man]

yeah and please don't PM them to asphyxia... please just post them here.... I don't really know why.

[Sunrunner]

I am sorry to see Chuck banned, personally I learned alot from his very well wriiten and accurate posts as they pertain to herps. Is there anyway he may one day be able to return to the site?
As for the religion/politics stuff I'm with the staff in that it's left better for some where else...to many "cyber-balls" on these types of sites. We should all be a tight-knit community since our passion of herps is threatened constantly from every corner, we need to work together and topics like religion/politics unfortunately tear us apart. In that light and since like you say this is a family site I think relationship issus (such as the dating a married woman thread) should also be shunned. No need for us to add to the crap the net already flounders in. Herps, friendly news, and concerns should be the focus here. Sorry if I added to the pot in that religion thread. It IS a touchy subject especially for a christian as we feel the need to bring others to our faith. There is no way we can't debate. Leave it for some where else. I don't want to be banned but even more I cannot leave my Faith undefended...it's impossible. So rather then make a damned if you do/damned if you don't choice I would prefer to see the problem eliminated before it manifests. Not all problems can be halted (as seen in the work out thread and dozens of others) but they can sbe ignificantly reduced if we all realize we are a community united under a common interest and we work together as such. Also Mousekilla is one hundred percent correct in the banning of ppl who feel the need to bash others for no reason at all. These ppl are a disgrace to the site and make us all look bad. Why hurt some one feelings for nothing...just keep it to yourself.

Thanks,
Kim

[corr]

I don't always agree with Chuck's tactics and I respect admin's decission to ban him. However I feel that Chuck's statement is true that Christian bashing is allowed here and that "What is enforced is a no “pro Christian discussion.” "

[V.hb]

I cant believe its so hard to apprehend that religion, war and politics are all around off limits on boards like this? I recieved PMS saying why do I not hassle birthday threads? I Only commented on this one as it was so out of place. I myself, like to talk about current events in war, and politics but never once spoke about it here, its far too racy and can lead to disaster that the mods dont need to deal with and some individuals just dont deserve to be offended even if it isnt done intentionally these topics can offend people.

I never knock people for believing in something or following what they feel is right thats great, but publically posting for everyone to read on a reptile forum isn't.

[MouseKilla]

Grant,

I wasn't trying to put anybody down or complain about the site. I was simply making an observation that the rules are somewhat ambiguous. It's been acknowledged that it's impossible to totally separate religion and politics from even the most strictly reptile related forums let alone the general discussion forum. What I was trying to do is offer a simpler rule. Simpler to understand for members, simpler to enforce for you guys. If you just say "no personal attacks" then you don't have to waste all that time you're talking about reading all the non-herp posts to screen it for forbidden topics. It's hard to say, as I'm sure you're position has shown you, when a conversation has turned political, philisophical or religious but it's quite easy to see when someone has crossed over to insults and attacks. Again, it isn't a problem with certain topics, it's certain people. Remove the idiots and the rest of us will be able to discuss nearly anything peacefully. I've seen other forums where it is possible to report a post, maybe that would be a way to take some of the pressure off you guys. If someone insults you report it to the Mod, they make their call and that's that. I understand the goals of the rules, I'm just saying that a simpler rule would be much easier for everyone but like Burger King, have it your way.

[jason h]

It is simply easier and in the best intrest to everyone if we ban certain topics then to start banning the members that cross the line while dicussing these topics.IF you thought that the GD was a free for all, then you didnt read the rules of the site, we like to keep everyone here in a postitive atmostphere,to be enjoyed by all not to get put down or bashed for there beliefs,there for these rules are in place.IF the rules were not here the forums would be overwelmed with arguement and upset members.This is not what we wish for the site to be.we want it to be a joy to visit for EVERYONE regardless of there beliefs or political differances.

[Grant vg]

mouse killa,

i understand your reasoning, and my post was in no means directed to you personally. We do have a report button if you look at the bottom left of each and every post on these forums..you will see it.
luckily enough ppl use it to to make are job a lot easier.

over the past year there have been tons of ppl who have acted out in a manner which should get them banned. however, we've rarely banned someone on there first negative post, let alone there second and third negative post, we warn ppl and do our best to keep members around as ive seen some of them change for the best.
others dont, they get banned.
Some are so caught up on there "freedom of speech" and reluctance to follow rules that the'll give us a very hard time when we try to fill them in on why we deleted a post, or whatever the case may be.
But id rather spend the extra time to keep members around, then ban ppl with the push of a button.
My point is, off topic posts like "happy birthday to X" or "check out my car" rarely bring about a flame war.
religion and politics always do. Rather then ban memebers, we delete posts on this, and spend the rest of our time browsing for other stuff that should be removed...

[Linds]

The difference between religion and politics and the most of the other topics discussed are that they are very personal and people are highly sensitive and defensive when it comes to discussing them. It would be nice to think that everyone resepected everyone else's religious and political views, but in truth, many do not, and in fact feel just as strongly against them as they feel pro their own. When allowed to be discussed in the past, these topics have ALWAYS ended up having to be closed. The site simply does not benefit in any way from them, but rather ends up having more of a negative impact than anything. It isn't like we banned the topics right off the bat, we learned from the past when we allowed them to be discussed - we go with what works and these topics don't.

[MouseKilla]

Grant,

I totally understand that the only reason the admin. has tried to steer people away from certain areas is to try to avoid some of the stupidity and that makes sense to me. The problem is that it doesn't work. One of the mods said that you can explain the rules 99 times and some people still won't get it. You can't prevent people from talking like idiots by limiting what the idiots can talk about. How many times have you seen people get out of line in a herp thread? I've seen it lots. I've been on the receiving end of some abuse in fact but it hasn't by any means been limited to off topic discussions. It just makes a lot more sense to me to forbid the abusiveness than to forbid individual subjects. I wonder what you think of this thread. It is neither political nor religious but it has brought more than 50 responses and over 800 viewings in less than 24 hours. There have been a lot of opinions expressed in this thread and a lot of people clearly feel strongly about what they are saying. So far no one has resorted to name calling or anything like that so what we've had is a good debate and, in my opinion, an entertaining conversation. We don't all agree with eachother and you can look at that as a negative thing if you like but I would suggest that if everyone always agreed then no one would waste their time talking to eachother in the first place. Should there be no discussing things that we don't all agree on? There is a difference between a debate and a fight. Whenever you have a discussion where there isn't total agreement you will hear the opposing opinions and that opens the door for that small minority of trouble makers to put others down based on their opinions. Now you can either forbid the put downs or you can go the other way and forbid everyone, no matter how well behaved, from talking about things that may inspire or give ammunition to that small group of jerks that in reality will find something to insult other people about regardless of how limited the conversation may be. You could cut all the forums out but one on this site, let's say that happened and all you could talk about was Ball Pythons, don't you think those same ignorant people would still cause problems? "You keep your enclosure at 70% humidity? Are you stupid?" If you really watch you will notice that it's the very same people that cause trouble no matter where they go. It can be a discussion on Christianity or a discussion on the humidity level of a ball python's enclosure, either way the idiots surface and then someone has to deal with them. Banning topics to avoid personal attacks is like banning cars to stop drunk driving, it's just clumsy.

[marisa]

But abusive attacks ARE already not allowed. And personally the differance between a herp thread getting out of hand and a religion thread is that its a HERP thread. The mods aren't here to moderate discussions about religion or politics. They are interested in herps and that is why they offered to be mods in the first place.

It seems so simple to me. Keep religion off a reptile forum, keep politics off a herp forum. There is no reason to state you believe in jesus or not in a way thats related to herps. There is no way to say you dont like Bush in a manner that has ANYTHING to do with reptiles. On top of that the threads get out of hand and it turns ugly.

In any case this website runs a million times smoother than other reptile forums out there, and as long as the arguements are HERP related then things are going good IMHO.

Marisa

[MouseKilla]

Marisa,

The General Discussion forum is specifically for non-herp related topics, therefore obviously there are mods to deal with more than just the herp stuff. IF what you were saying was true and no one wanted to have to moderate off topic threads then they simply wouldn't exist, there would be no General Discussion forum. Doing that would not, as I've said, eliminate personal attacks. You say it is "simple" to keep religion and politics out of the discussions, if that were so then maybe you could define what those words mean. You can't! And again, herp collecting itself is a political act. It's far easier to define personal attacks as insults or put downs directed at another member. A rule like that draws a clear line, it doesn't say you can talk about this but don't talk about that, it says express your opinion but don't abuse others. What can be simpler? I realize that a rule similar to that already exists, what I'm saying is that no more is needed.

[marisa]

It was NEVER for non related herp topics! What it meant was anything herp that didn't fit into a species specific catergory. It wasn't until people started posting religion and crap that it became the "do as you feel forum"

It was never a post anything forum. Ever. Maybe the wording is wrong but by "anything" it means anything that didn't fit into the catergories. I don't see why thats hard to understand considering we are on a REPTILE website.

You don't want anyone to define anything so what DO you want? You want no off topic posts because ssnakess.com cannot define religion? Thats a little ridiculous if you ask me. You want them to define it and then have them watch people CONSTANTLY cross the line? That creates MORE work for them.

Like I said, since the time this site opened the general forum was for things that didn't fit into the species specific categories. Not do as you feel, that idea came from members posting whatever they wanted, not the sites idea.

And I agree. More is not needed. But less complaints to this website from people are. (not specifically you of course, just generally) when they decide enough is enough, why can't people who aren't supporting this site in the first place agree with that and just let it go?

Marisa

[marisa]

And "collecting a herp is a political act"

But these people aren't talking about that! And if it was truely a herp related discussion then fine. But it CLEARLY wasn't in this case and it hardly ever is. It may start that way but it ends in fighting.

I am just saying all these complaints are coming from people who want to talk about this stuff obviously. And some of these complainers seem to think they can run a forum this size better (because they have a lot of problems with this place apparently, again not you at all but generally) so why don't they just abide by the SIMPLE easy to understand rules, or go make their own forum if this one is handling things in a manner they don't agree with? Jeff has asked like 55 times in a nice polite way but people just ignore him. Its rude and disrespectful if you ask me.

Again none directed at you but generally. ya know. lol
Marisa
P.S. Yes maybe just a ban on attacks (which there already is) would work, but the owner of this site and the mods have CLEARLY posted their position on it, they do not want it discussed. My point is how many times do they have to ask this until people just shut up and listen? ya know what I mean? Why are people forcing them to be borken records like they can't even read what they say? Its stupid. If I was Jeff I would have blown my top by now.

[Grant vg]

as Marisa said, abusive attacks and *****-disturbers wont be accepted on this site.

so say for a second we allow religion and politics to be on the forums again...because we have decided to adopt your view on how to moderate the forums.
I'll bet all my snakes that within the first 24 hours, there will be at least a few heated discussions by the time i get home from work, and after a hard day, ill have to spend hours, as thats what it normally takes to read these threads, just to have to put it into the bad threads at the end of it.
Not to mention, the group of ppl i have to start banning because they stepped out of line.
and who gets banned?
the first guy who jumped in with a sassy attitude and a swear word, or the next guy, who started off pleasent, but blew his top once stupid guy #1 jumped in?
So they all get banned.
stupid guy #1 never really offered anything to the site. so its ok to ban him.
but that one pleasent guy, had 1100+ posts of good solid information they shared prior to this little outburst.
So now were in front of the firing squad because other members felt pleasent guy should have been given a warning b/c he has so much to offer, but cant walk away from a debate gone sour because hes a proud catholic.
by letting these topics to be discussed were making a lot more work for ourselves...and a lot more troubles.
it wont EVER be allowed to be discussed on this forum, regardless of where this thread continues to head. thats not a prediction, thats a fact.

im going to stop there, as ill just be repeating something thats already been stated in this thread.

gvg

[MouseKilla]

I have tried to make it clear from the start that I am not complaining, just making an observation on the difference between the INTENT of the rules and the reality of what actually happens. I love this site and the reason for that is the good conversation and information that I find here. I think the mods had the right idea when they made the rules but I'm just pointing out that they don't work. The reason for that is that the absense of a clear understanding of what "religion and politics" means causes more confusion and more work not less. It's easier to define abuse than to ban topics that have brought heated arguements. How about this thread, is this one religious or political? Is it on topic or off?? Those questions are harder to answer than the easier question of has anyone been attacked. In this case the answer is no, no one has been personally attacked. This isn't a snake discussion but it isn't a religious or political one either so how would you apply all of the other complex rules to this thread? The abuse rule requires much less work and judgement so the idea that having additional, more complicated rules makes things easier for anyone is simply false.