ready made sleeping hides for Savs

[formica]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

I personally feel we are "comforting" our pets to death. Most of our reptiles come from environments where there are very distinct differences in the weather and temperature during the different seasons.

A reptiles metabolism is directly affected by temperatures. We all know reptiles conserve energy during the unfavorable seasons. Yet when weather is favorable they're much more active.

I said all of that to say that I feel that keeping a reptile in prime conditions at all times not only increases the growth rate but may also shorten their lives. I honestly have nothing but rationale to back this up though.

I agree completly, based on what I know about evolution and adaption of species to their enviroment, and the known effects that dormancy/hibernation, whatever you want to call it, has on physiology, in humans, fasting as the effect of switching our systems massivly to repair DNA, in normal mode, with lots of food, our DNA doesnt get repaired...possibly why Cancer is one of the biggest killers in humans, because we didnt evolve to eat from supermarkets, we evolved to hunt and gather as the seasons permitted. Most insect colonies that are temperate cannot survive more than 20-25% of their full colony life span without hibernation

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, I would agree, and with the greatest respect to the OP overthinking often leads to problems, in this case it probably will (for the animal, not the keeper).
There IS a "formula" already in place for keeping Varanids healthy, long lived and productive in captivity, unfortunately not too many people know there is one, or if they do, for some reason want to make unnecessary changes (complicate things) because they think they can do it even better, the statistics prove otherwise.

I am not convinced that the ''formula'' is correct, there are infact no statistics, the fact that monitors outgrow wild monitors by upto 100-150% in captivity does not mean the forumla is right, or that it is good for them; this is a debatable point and should not be held as fact either way

And yes I do believe I might be able to offer some improvements which allow for Aestitive states by using an essentially man made burrow and very careful climate control - I might be wrong, and I am dealing with only one Savanna monitor, to truely test the theory would require a much larger number to be matched up against control data (ie everyone who follows 'the formula') and wild data (which doesnt seem to exist in very useful amounts)

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Behavourial patterns in monitors according to where they live vary a lot in Auss for example you can have tree dwelling kimberly rock monitors quite close to rock dwellers...

Hi, where have you seen a population of Kimberley rock monitors "dwelling in trees" (I`m not disagreeing with the fact individuals may well climb trees, that might be fairly common), but you suggest an almost semi or arborial group of animals in some locations?

[formica]

Originally Posted by franks

Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.

perhaps not all the time, rainy season is approx 8 months, give or take a month for populations of insects to breed and die off, 6 months of lots of food doesnt sound like an issue to me.

And regarding their diet not consisting entirly of insects - this may be true, however without insects, there will be no other animals, because they feed the food chain from the bottom up

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Simply put animals with faster metabolic rates die younger... Lizards have a highly variable metabolic rate... kept optimally 24/7 there metabolic rate will consequently be higher... thus they die younger than those who have a loower metabolic rate...

Of course theres no evidence to support this in monitors or other species at this point.

Hi, "kept optimally 24/7" does not necessarily mean their metabolic rate is constantly at it`s highest, they DO have rest periods when the rate is significantly lower (even if the heat/lights are kept on 24/7), obviously there need to be cooler, darker places to retreat to. Your suggestion insinuates they are at "peak activity" levels 24 hours a day, 365 days a year!?
I`m just questioning answers in order to get a better understanding, no disrespect!

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, where have you seen a population of Kimberley rock monitors "dwelling in trees" (I`m not disagreeing with the fact individuals may well climb trees, that might be fairly common), but you suggest an almost semi or arborial group of animals in some locations?

now your testing me the kimberly region if i remember rightly one group lived in the rocks and another not in trees per say more like scrubland and the two groups to my knowledge dont exactly interbreed or not regularly at any rate.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by franks

Very interesting. I wish there were studies to show the frequency and type of meals that various snakes and lizards consumed in their natural habitats. I tend to agree with you, and started cutting back the food for my monitor and making him work for it.

Hi, there are studies of that nature on Varanids.

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Hi, "kept optimally 24/7" does not necessarily mean their metabolic rate is constantly at it`s highest, they DO have rest periods when the rate is significantly lower (even if the heat/lights are kept on 24/7), obviously there need to be cooler, darker places to retreat to. Your suggestion insinuates they are at "peak activity" levels 24 hours a day, 365 days a year!?
I`m just questioning answers in order to get a better understanding, no disrespect!

I agree what i meant by it was that in a wild setting there will be days where the monitor may not get up to peak activity at all whereas in a captive environment each day allows them to operate at peak capacity far more than a wild setting.

So taken as an average there metabolic rate would be higher than there wild counterparts.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

now your testing me the kimberly region if i remember rightly one group lived in the rocks and another not in trees per say more like scrubland and the two groups to my knowledge dont exactly interbreed or not regularly at any rate.

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by formica

I agree completly, based on what I know about evolution and adaption of species to their enviroment, and the known effects that dormancy/hibernation, whatever you want to call it, has on physiology, in humans, fasting as the effect of switching our systems massivly to repair DNA, in normal mode, with lots of food, our DNA doesnt get repaired...possibly why Cancer is one of the biggest killers in humans, because we didnt evolve to eat from supermarkets, we evolved to hunt and gather as the seasons permitted. Most insect colonies that are temperate cannot survive more than 20-25% of their full colony life span without hibernation




I am not convinced that the ''formula'' is correct, there are infact no statistics, the fact that monitors outgrow wild monitors by upto 100-150% in captivity does not mean the forumla is right, or that it is good for them; this is a debatable point and should not be held as fact either way

And yes I do believe I might be able to offer some improvements which allow for Aestitive states by using an essentially man made burrow and very careful climate control - I might be wrong, and I am dealing with only one Savanna monitor, to truely test the theory would require a much larger number to be matched up against control data (ie everyone who follows 'the formula') and wild data (which doesnt seem to exist in very useful amounts)

Dunno really this formula has worked quite well for the last 20 years or so sadly its only now becoming common knowledge... Its taken a while to beat bag the ole keep em like a beardie husbandry...

And throwing new stuff in without enough evidence that its a neccesity seems like a bad way to go to me.


Best of luck with it....

Out of interest how will you stop the burrows from becoming oversaturated if the sav chooses to park his back side right over the water bit?

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

I was born in Western Aus, that`s why I`m interested, though I`ve never been to the Kimberleys (note the "E" between the L and Y) I haven`t heard about these animals. I know Dr. Graham Thompson (Edith Cowan University) does quite a lot of field work up there, he`s published numerous articles on various species of Varanid, including this species (he`s bred this and several other species, too), I don`t recall him mentioning anything like that (not to suggest there couldn`t be).
Interesting!

Its only based on a mates observations who lived over there for a few years.

I have no reason to disbelief it and its not hard to imagine them choosing two separate ecological niches.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

I agree what i meant by it was that in a wild setting there will be days where the monitor may not get up to peak activity at all whereas in a captive environment each day allows them to operate at peak capacity far more than a wild setting.

So taken as an average there metabolic rate would be higher than there wild counterparts.

It might sound as if I`m "nit picking", I promise I`m not, it`s good to discuss different points of view, that`s how we learn!
I understand what you`re saying, though there are times in captivity that their activity can drop, even though the conditions are much the same.
Maybe you haven`t taken into account the huge reduction in exercise they have in the box of dirt, so in actual fact, at times the wild monitors would be operating at peak levels for much longer.

[murrindindi]

Originally Posted by varanus_mad

Dunno really this formula has worked quite well for the last 20 years or so sadly its only now becoming common knowledge... Its taken a while to beat bag the ole keep em like a beardie husbandry...

And throwing new stuff in without enough evidence that its a neccesity seems like a bad way to go to me.


Best of luck with it....

Out of interest how will you stop the burrows from becoming oversaturated if the sav chooses to park his back side right over the water bit?

Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

It might sound as if I`m "nit picking", I promise I`m not, it`s good to discuss different points of view, that`s how we learn!
I understand what you`re saying, though there are times in captivity that their activity can drop, even though the conditions are much the same.
Maybe you haven`t taken into account the huge reduction in exercise they have in the box of dirt, so in actual fact, at times the wild monitors would be operating at peak levels for much longer.

that is a very good point and not something i had considered the box of dirt while allowing optimum conditions does limit them in that regard very rarely do captive monitors bolt or sprint to catch prey either

[varanus_mad]

Originally Posted by murrindindi

Well, said again, someone with zero experience "experimenting" with an animal`s life is not the way forward in my opinion, the chances of failure are great (the keeper will survive intact, though)....

i am never very keen in tbis regard some things are flexible and can be played with minimal risk but forcing them to behave a certain way does not work with vafor ranids beardies brumate for example ive never seen a sav volunterily reduce its activity level to a point where ive thought it was a healthy thing to be doing

[formica]

Physiological changea from dormancy dont occour over night, so to speak, cool dormancy at night def iant the same thing

Btw i have no experience with Savs, but 20 years controlling subterran and terran enclosures within very tight margins; im not jumping into this blind despite being a newbie to Savs. I feel the dry season peroid has been overlooked in the current 'formula', and hopefully the fact i am talking to experienced keepers now shows you this is not something i am taking lightly!