Scaleless Ball Python??? - Page 4

Chris72 · 10-04-13, 06:08 AM

Published paper: EVAPORATIVE WATER LOSS IN SCALELESS SNAKES

Link: http://compphys.bio.uci.edu/bennett/pubs/18.pdf

ErikBush97 · 10-04-13, 06:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure Boa

Anything to make him money, he'll do. Those people don't give a **** about the health of snakes. Pariahs in the reptile community IMO.

Rob

As others have said + common sense has suggested. There's already scaleless reptiles that are healthy, and have the same needs as normal. Why would a Ball Python be any different? I would expect them to be normal, healthy snakes.

Starbuck · 10-04-13, 06:31 AM

Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it
hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)
On a sadder note, we have already done these things, with dachshunds corgis, hip dysplasia with labs, etc etc etc. These 'horrible' things have already been done.
I didnt mean to imply that the scaleless skin was as thick as a normal snake, rather that it wasn't as structurally poor as we might think. From what I understand scales developementally are juat folding/invaginations of the epidermis with localized keratinization creating the scale itself. Take away that keratin and ....??? As formixa said I think this is a useful and interesting phenomenon, and could definitely be useful to human medicine/developemental biology.
Until someone can prove to me the snake is suffering or not aufferimg, I'm going to abscond from passing judgement.

Nobodyspecial · 10-04-13, 11:44 AM

I don't like the idea of calling the snake itself an abomination. It has nothing more to do with this than being born. I'm personally more disappointed with the breeder, but that started way before this little guy came to be.

I'm also curious about the heat pit thing, surely at least the nerve endings and such are still present, but without the pits themselves I wonder if it alters the way the snake "sees" heat. Without the protection of the normal scales surrounding them will the skin form a callous over the nerves making the pits almost useless? The snake's eyes as well, since we all know that they have the modified scale eye caps. This animal would in theory be missing that. Does it mess with their already iffy vision? Making them even more sensitive to bright lights etc? I haven't heard whether or not this animal is missing the ventral scales either - like the one born in 2007 was. If they are missing I can only imagine how difficult it'd be for them to move. I'm sure ultimately the animal will adapt to the hindrances caused by scalelessness, nature is quite stubborn like that.

I hope they don't continue the line until they at least are sure that the animals can reach a decent age without any health problems. (I'm pretty sure out of the two scaleless that where born one is male...) But that's a childishly optimistic hope when it comes to these people...

Chris72 · 10-04-13, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Starbuck

Lol chris r.e. the dog.... I also don't like shedding, so lets make it hairless.... uouve described a snake!!! Hahaha :-)............

Right..

So for Franken-Dog:

>So we have taken away all the dogs slobering and wet bits.
>Removed the legs to get rid of all that pesky running around.
>Ok, need to get all the hair of that dog now...(check!)
>Now....lets just make him nice a shiny and a little more durable by adding some scales and he will perfect.

Wait..what..? (and...we're back!!)

.

slowhite03 · 10-04-13, 11:14 PM

I'm going to get bashed probably for this but whatever. Humans do animal mutations all the freaking time. Dogs, cats, and if course snakes just to name a few. Now I don't know how these animals are produced, how does a scaleless head python come about anyway? What I'm trying to say unless we somehow insert these genes into the snake, then these could happen in the wild theoretically. We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine. So why I don't neccisarly believe that it is right, we as humans want to be the first at everything. It's what we do.

Robin.M · 10-05-13, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slowhite03

We have scaleless every other type of breed of snake and as far as I know they so just fine.

Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:

Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake

Shall I go on?

Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...

Rob

RobsCornField · 10-05-13, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure Boa

Here is just a short list of the species I know that we have yet to find a scaleless variation of:

Blood Pythons
Short Tail Pythons
Boa Constrictors
Reticulated Pythons
Burmese Pythons
Indian Pythons
African Rock Pythons
Childrens Python
Anthill Pythons
Green Tree Pythons
Emerald Tree Boas
Sand Boas
Viper Boas
Indigo
False Water Cobra
Hognose
King Cobra
Monocled Cobra
Indian Cobra
Gaboon Viper
Western Diamondback Rattlesnake
Eastern Diamondback Rattlesnake
Pygmy Rattlesnake
Mojave Rattlesnake
Coral Snake
Amazon Tree Boa
Olive Python
Woma Python
Carpet Python
Blackheaded Python
Rhino Rat Snake

Shall I go on?

Now that I have listed a VERY SMALL number of the species that have yet to be proven to have scaleless within their ranks, please can you inform me of ALL the species you know of? Besides Ball Python, Corn Snake, and Rat Snakes...

Rob

Actually, a couple on your list *do* have scaleless variations.

Burmese pythons:

Scaleless albino atrox:

Scaleless atrox:

It's looking more and more like a lot of the species that are being heavily propagated in captivity are turning up with the scaleless mutation. Even scaleless gopher snakes have cropped up as far back as 1971 (and that one was a *GASP* WILD-CAUGHT!). The scaleless mutation is nothing new. It's just something that, through the line-breeding for traits and morphs, is coming to light more commonly.

EDIT: Here's a couple more:

Gopher snake:

Adder:

Robin.M · 10-05-13, 11:33 AM

WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...

They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!

So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?

Rob

RobsCornField · 10-05-13, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pure Boa

WOW! I never knew Burms and Westerns had scaleless variations...

They just look odd. The scales and rattler are what makes a Rattler a RATTLER!

So, seeing the pics of the Westerns, the rattles don't have the build up of scales there. Do these snakes still have the ability to rattle or no?

Rob

It is my understanding that they cannot rattle. It looks like "nature" decided those were non-essential in the scaleless trait, unlike ventral scales and eye-caps.

RobsCornField · 10-05-13, 11:45 AM

In doing even more research (and here I thought I had done plenty before bringing my own mutant scaleless Texas rat snake home), it looks like scaleless snakes have been in the hobby since at least 1990, when Dr. Bechtel proved the gene in Texas rat snakes out as simple recessive. However, there were instances of scaleless snakes being captured in the wild long before then.

Eastern garter - 1982
Mole snake - 1978
Pacific Gopher Snake - 1971
Western garter - 1942

They were captured in various stages of maturity, and "none have been noted to have been any more scarred than a normal snake from the same habitat". source

So for those of you who say "this could NEVER survive in the wild! It's an abomination", nature just told you differently.

EDIT:

Scaleless hognose. Because reasons.

warehouse13fan · 10-13-13, 08:23 PM

I quite enjoy them....and wouldn't mind having one.... these snakes are getting it just as bad the hybrids people saying their unnatural and crap.

rhiannon79 · 10-13-13, 09:02 PM

Personally looking at the pics adove I th8nk they look a little sick like old people who loose the color and thickness to there skin like the snakes have a health issue im sure thats not the case but thats what it lloks like to me

warehouse13fan · 10-14-13, 02:39 PM

they are completly healthy.. unless cared for wrongly

snakeman879 · 10-15-13, 03:06 AM

Just my opinion I think the bp with no scales looks really nice I wouldent want to own one but I wouldent want a bp of eny kind full stop. I think if the breeders could say for certain that the snake could live a happy and healthy life then I dont c a problem with it. There is allways going to be people wanting to pay big buks for strange animals its human nature to want somthing no one els has. My opinion is there are way to much bp out there eny way all shows and expos are stuffed with them and the ones with no scales will be next I guess if they can survive.