"Best trained Savannah monitor"

[jarich]

Super ugly monitors, as always David.

Ya, thats how a healthy monitor moves when it sees food, not that sluggish overweight depressingly sick thing that Durham has.

[infernalis]

[Mark Taylor]

That's brilliant but I think someone was trying to skype you

[Squirtle]

Originally Posted by infernalis

Are those yours? Wow, they've gotten huge! Last time I saw them was when you first got them, exactly a year ago.

[DeadlyDesires]

wayne, how come your enclosure looks empty?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by DeadlyDesires

wayne, how come your enclosure looks empty?

It's the vantage point, looking down on the dirt mound. Spring is almost here, they will have grass again soon. They dig it up, destroy and bury it.

[DeadlyDesires]

Originally Posted by infernalis

It's the vantage point, looking down on the dirt mound. Spring is almost here, they will have grass again soon. They dig it up, destroy and bury it.

aaahh ok, i was just wondering cause i have seen it with a lot more stuff lol

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by Pirarucu

So that's how you embed.. Dave, I never get tired of seing videos of your two, what are the dimensions on that cage?

Thanks! It's 2.4 x 2.4 x 1.2m

It could be much larger and they'd still use all of it.

[smy_749]

This may be a stupid question, so just a warning :-P

Why can't you just keep your lacies in an outdoor enclosure? Not the right part of Australia? Also I know you guys don't get imports of reptile species from other countries generally, but what restrictions is there on catching wild caught native species and keeping them in captivity?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

It could be much larger and they'd still use all of it.

I feel the same exact way, every time I look in on my kids.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

This may be a stupid question, so just a warning :-P
Why can't you just keep your lacies in an outdoor enclosure?

Oh gee, I'd never thought of that before

Seriously, though, I'd LOVE to house them outdoors and will do so one day, but the place I own doesn't have a back yard.

Originally Posted by smy_749

what restrictions is there on catching wild caught native species and keeping them in captivity?

It's illegal in my state so the hobby is strictly supplied by CB animals, which I think is a good thing.

In other states, permits can be obtained to capture a limited number of animals from the wild to introduce into the hobby.

If you saw monitors in the wild and how active they are, the idea of putting one into captivity is abhorrent for it would be tantamount to torture. CB animals have never experienced the wild, so it's a bit less tortuous for them, but they still know they are locked up and will try to escape if they can. As they get older, though, and you let them out, they'll voluntarily return to their enclosures to bask.

[smy_749]

Ah gotcha.

So are you against WC in the hobby, if the option of CB is not available? Like most of the indo species in America.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

So are you against WC in the hobby, if the option of CB is not available? Like most of the indo species in America.

If anything, I'm even more against WC in the hobby in places where the animals don't occur natively, such as America.

Here if WC were allowed it would just be the odd animal taken and it would only affect the individual animals (the extent of the effect would depend on the species), but when you have an import industry you are adding several other factors: It starts with people whose motivation to capture animals will be high enough that there may be some habitat destruction involved (breaking open rock crevices or hollow logs, cutting down small trees to get the animals down) and who aren't overly worried about overcollection, as their livelihood may be at stake. Then there's the death toll from transportation in substandard conditions, followed by languishing in a reptile importer's warehouse. The survivors end up in a pet store, where the staff don't know how to look after them and then, finally, most end up being bought by new keepers with no experience that buy them because they're inexpensive compared to other, CB, species. A huge percentage of them are dead before long.

Big death toll, no recruitment. I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

I guess this was a long winded way of me saying 'yes, I'm against WC in the hobby'.

[smy_749]

Originally Posted by crocdoc

If anything, I'm even more against WC in the hobby in places where the animals don't occur natively, such as America.

Here if WC were allowed it would just be the odd animal taken and it would only affect the individual animals (the extent of the effect would depend on the species), but when you have an import industry you are adding several other factors: It starts with people whose motivation to capture animals will be high enough that there may be some habitat destruction involved (breaking open rock crevices or hollow logs, cutting down small trees to get the animals down) and who aren't overly worried about overcollection, as their livelihood may be at stake. Then there's the death toll from transportation in substandard conditions, followed by languishing in a reptile importer's warehouse. The survivors end up in a pet store, where the staff don't know how to look after them and then, finally, most end up being bought by new keepers with no experience that buy them because they're inexpensive compared to other, CB, species. A huge percentage of them are dead before long.

Big death toll, no recruitment. I've been on these monitor forums for over 12 years and every year there's a dozen new keepers who post about how they are going to 'break the mould' and be the pioneers of producing CB Indo monitors of the indicus complex, particularly doreanus and melinus. Eventually they disappear from the forums without achieving that goal. The imports keep coming in. There's a reason CB aren't available: No one succeeds in breeding them and if they do, it's a one or two clutch run max.

I guess this was a long winded way of me saying 'yes, I'm against WC in the hobby'.

Yea I agree, But I think I will be different. I'm going to do everything to provide proper husbandry, money is not an issue. So I'm guessing they will breed in no time. I am going to break the mould and be the pioneer for sure...Oh. and I'm going to get rich as well because breeding reptiles is a sure fire way to get rich.

But in all seriousness, for me its only more complicated because I live in an area where there is almost nothing besides a some snake species (no lizards except the 5 lined skink which I've never seen in 23 years). Plus captive bred has its roots in wild caught, so without wild caught we could never have captive bred. I suppose I would support wild caught if there was a permit required, and the permit required that you have a certain amount of income, neccessary knowledge in order to keep specific species. That would weed out the careless inexperienced keepers,and allow others to admire the species we would otherwise never be able to see.

[crocdoc]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Plus captive bred has its roots in wild caught, so without wild caught we could never have captive bred.

I've seen this lame argument used to support the WC industry before, but never from a reasonably educated person. I am, to be perfectly honest, shocked and surprised. Are you seriously unable to determine the difference between these two scenarios?

1. Remove half a dozen individuals from the wild, breed them and then continue to supply the hobby through generation after generation of hundreds (if not thousands) of CB offspring, without the need to remove more animals out of the wild.

2. Continue to remove thousands of animals out of the wild, year after year after year, with a large number dying in transport and few surviving after they reach the end user.

The other factor I haven't mentioned is that CB animals fare better in captivity, so there's a higher survival rate than with WC.