Het albino retic question

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by millertime89

well you don't want to join a forum... I'll host it tonight on photobucket.

I JUST found the FB link. 651 posts, have fun.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1130...3053560792582/

Here's when I asked. I generally trust Paul, but I'm not sure if I agree with him this time.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1130...tal_comments=8

Bookmarked for fun later.

I never said I didn't want to join a forum. I said groups on facebook since that's where you said it originally came from.

[reptileexperts]

Many if not all het pieds will have markers. Co-Dom for our understanding in breeding genetics means that when the animal contains two copies of a dominate gene there is a significant difference. Now we could just associate that to incomplete dominance from a strict genetic stand point, but we refer to anything that has a super form as a Co-dominate animal. . .

Another example of the co-dominate in real world genetics is blood typing, AB+, o-, so forth. This is an example of a different outcome when you contain two copies of different dominant genes.

Incomplete dominance makes a difference though when you have genes that blend together to form unique results. In this case, nearly all morphs are considered incomplete dominant with some exceptions where they prove to be lethal combinations (Spider x Champagne in BP).

So yes, there probably is no real co-dominate, we simply have dominant or recessive genes that act and react different to one another. However, in reality there are no normal dominant genes, because in morphs when two copies are present it almost always makes a truly different paint job.

[Aaron_S]

No, not all het pids have markers. Mine didn't and plenty of people have bought "marker balls" and not pop out pieds. Even if many do, it still discredits the whole theory based on the fact that it needs to be consistent.

All ball python co-dom traits are actually incomplete dominant. We use co-dom purely as a marketing standpoint.

Here are some links to help others distinguish things.

co-dom vs inc-dom

modes of inheritance

[reptileexperts]

I would agree mostly that morphs should be considered incomplete dominance. With some remaining just dominant (Champagne, Spider, Pinstripe - simply because there is no Homozygous form of these genes that survives - we could even through Jaguar in there). I do believe we are OK calling SOME things co-dominate because of the way they react to other genes. If they simply brighten with two copies as in Pastel, we would call that codominance. If things drastically change as in Super Fires, Mojaves, Lesser, or in retics Plattinum, you could call these incomplete dominance, but many people are now refering to them as Visual hets for a recessive trait (Luecistic - aka Blue eyed Lucy and Black eyed Lucy). This topic has definitely been beat around quite a bit by numerous breeders, and the results will always be arguable. Not trying to be the guy who changes the way things are done, just bringing all the facts to light that have been discussed before.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by reptileexperts

I would agree mostly that morphs should be considered incomplete dominance. With some remaining just dominant (Champagne, Spider, Pinstripe - simply because there is no Homozygous form of these genes that survives - we could even through Jaguar in there). I do believe we are OK calling SOME things co-dominate because of the way they react to other genes. If they simply brighten with two copies as in Pastel, we would call that codominance. If things drastically change as in Super Fires, Mojaves, Lesser, or in retics Plattinum, you could call these incomplete dominance, but many people are now refering to them as Visual hets for a recessive trait (Luecistic - aka Blue eyed Lucy and Black eyed Lucy). This topic has definitely been beat around quite a bit by numerous breeders, and the results will always be arguable. Not trying to be the guy who changes the way things are done, just bringing all the facts to light that have been discussed before.

The real genetics geeks from the forum I posted from say it's all incomplete dominant. Personally, I stick to co-dom as it's just easier for people to understand.

Technically, we can't call them just dominant because even though they have "super" forms that die, they still produce them. Pinstripe/spider don't make anything except more pins and spiders when bred though so I'd call them dominant. Super champs just die so it would make them in-complete dominant because it DOES exist.

I hope that this thread has taught some people something new is all I was aiming for.

[reptileexperts]

super spiders die - super pinstripes don't exist because they die - genetically speaking it can not be that the super does not simply exist, it just means that the super is not viable and either dies during fertilization or what not. Incomplete dominance is an accurate representation over all, but its def not the "accepted norm"

[lady_bug87]

So for all us remedial kids in class... What makes something a super and why do they die?

[KORBIN5895]

Not all supers die. I know nothing about retics and very little about royals but I can figure out boas.

A motley boa is a co-dominant ( I guess from reading this the term is incomplete dominant) gene. When a motley is bred to any boa that is not motley about half of the babies have the visual motley patterning and the other half look normal. The half that look normal will never produce a motley unless bred to a visual motley.

When two motleys are bred together you will get 75% motleys and 25% super motleys. Super motleys are a very dark boa with an almost solid pattern iirc.

The kicker is this, a motley is a central American boa mutation. When two ca motleys are beef together the super forms survive just fine.

Now if you cross a ca motley to a Colombian boa you get Colombian motley. When two Colombian motleys are bred the super forms tend to die quite you ( in the first two years I think.)

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by reptileexperts

super spiders die - super pinstripes don't exist because they die - genetically speaking it can not be that the super does not simply exist, it just means that the super is not viable and either dies during fertilization or what not. Incomplete dominance is an accurate representation over all, but its def not the "accepted norm"

Can you point me to readings where super pins die or any record of an actual one? Super spider and super champs have been made but they die either just before hatching or shortly after. So they have been made. If the super pin dies before conception then there would be a higher loss of eggs during incubation as then it truly be a "lethal gene".

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by lady_bug87

So for all us remedial kids in class... What makes something a super and why do they die?

I told you you can have a lesson whenever! Coffee would suffice instead of dinner :P

They die, for unknown reasons. It's on a genetic level. For whatever reason to gene expressed twice in the same animal somehow makes them less "hardy". There may be some explanation but I have yet to read it and would be most curious.

What makes the super is the expression of the two genes in the same animal at once. So take mojaves for example. When expressed as the incomplete dominant (or co-dom for most people) they show the morph as we know it. When bred together we produce a white snake. That's the "super form". What confuses other people more is that there are other genes that reside on the same allele. They look different on the incomplete dominant level but when bred to another one they produce the same "super form". In this instance we can take mojave breed it to a lesser and make white snakes.

Also, if anyone doesn't know alleles. Think of it as genetic trees. If you have a gene on the same tree but just a different branch (different colour/pattern) they will produce the same or very similar "super" forms.

[reptileexperts]

If two motley are bred together you will get 25% normal, 50% motely, and 25% Super Motley . . .
Mm x Mm = 25% MM (super), 25% mm (normal), 50% (motley).

Super just means that it contains two copies of a given gene at the loci of the mutation. In a lot of cases the super form is completely different than the normal single gene mutation but to speak more specifically - A super gene complex is one that exist in a Homozygous state - Homozygous meaning that both allelic genes are the same mutation. Each parent offers one gene at each Loci. If the parent is a super, then it would HAVE to offer the mutant gene, does that make sense?

Xx = Heterozygous, xx = Homozygous, XX = Homozygous

For albonism it is a recessive mutation where the dominant trait is normal (X) and the visual mutation would be named (x). So for it to be shown you would need the homozygous form of the recessive mutation (xx), so when you do a cross of a normal and an albino just to follow this through deeper . . .

XX (normal) xx (albino) crossed in a punnet square we get
100% Xx offspring. This is because one parent (the normal) can only donate a normal copy (X), and the other parent can only donate a single copy of the mutated gene (x)

If we then cross two of the siblings, brother and sister of this pairing we get the following . . .

(Xx) x (Xx) =

25% Albino (xx - Homozygous recessive), 25% Normal (XX - Homozygous), and 50% Heterozygous for Albino animals (Xx).

When you see people selling animals that are 66% hets, let me push a little further and break that down for those who are curious.

Because we crossed the two Heterozygous animals (Xx) we can visually tell which ones are Albino (the 25%). Therefor, we are left with 3/4 of the animals as possible carriers of the gene. Because we ALSO know that 1/2 (50%) of the snakes should be het, probability of any of the offspring sold as being Heterozygous for albino would then come down to 66% (we do not say 50% simply because we know that a quarter were Albino so we have to account for that in probability).

The reason that some supers are lethal is simply because mutations aren't always a good thing in the body. In the case of Jaguar genes in Carpet Pythons. The only supers that have been produced survived up to about the last 1-2 weeks of incubation where they died in the egg. When the eggs were cut open they found a solid white leucistic snake that's heart developed outside the body in all 3 cases. Similar things happened with the Champagne - Super champagnes produce a pink / white snake. In all cases where Champagne x champagne was used this snake did not make it to birth, or was born severly kinked and died within a week or was euthanized in sever cases (Kevin at NERD has posted about this on a youtube video). Alrighty, any questions?

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by reptileexperts

...The reason that some supers are lethal is simply because mutations aren't always a good thing in the body. In the case of Jaguar genes in Carpet Pythons. The only supers that have been produced survived up to about the last 1-2 weeks of incubation where they died in the egg. When the eggs were cut open they found a solid white leucistic snake that's heart developed outside the body in all 3 cases. Similar things happened with the Champagne - Super champagnes produce what some people refer to as a Pearl. This snake HAS been produced through other mutations alive, but in all cases where Champagne x champagne was used the pearl snake did not make it to birth, or was born severly kinked and died within a week or was euthanized in sever cases (Kevin at NERD has posted about this on a youtube video). Alrighty, any questions?

Pet peeve of mine. The pearl is the crossing of hidden gene woma x hidden gene woma. I also believe it's woma x woma.

Super champs have no name and were done recently in 2012 and maybe 2011. Comes out a white with pink hues.

[reptileexperts]

Aaron, show me a homozygous spider? or a homozygous pinstripe?? they dont exist because they die during one part or another of the incubation or fertilzation process. BHB Made ONE claim that they had a super pinstripe that threw nothing but pins, but that is the exception. Because one super survives, we can not say the combo isn't lethal. Also, explain why people do not breed spider to spider or pin to pin? Who cares if the visual would look any different, if you had a male that threw all pinstripe and was a super pastel to boot, you'd ALWAYS throw lemonblasts. People would make them if they could, but they cant. The proof? Look at the lack of evidence that they can. We have to speculate from here.

[reptileexperts]

Pet Peeve huh? Sorry, my mistake that they perhaps called it something else? Yes Pearls were created with a HG Woma

[reptileexperts]

Edited as to not offend you . ..