memory

[Kaetlinv]

Ive been reading this and I'm rather confused about how to portray my opinion...


None of this is definite fact so please don't think i'm trying to be a know it all. It's an attempt to sort out my thoughts and possibly help this discussion become something more than a 'I'm right, you're wrong' fight.


While reptiles are not capable of complex thought / emotion, fear and anger are emotional responses whether they're caused by physical, audial, or visual stimuli.

Humans are not the only intelligent creature out there - while snakes are no where near matching us, their responses are the same as ours.

Our fear is caused by the same stimuli as any animal. Take away touch and we wouldn't be scared by something hitting us because we couldn't feel. Take away sight and we couldn't be scared of the things in front of us (say a fear of a spider or lightning) because we couldn't see it. Take away sound and the noises that scare us no longer apply.

This applies to all animals. Emotions appear to be response to stimuli, past or present.

Instinct is more about the fight or flight reaction that no one or thing can really control if it's pressing enough. Instinct is the reaction that is automatic - humans have little instinct now beyond fight or flight and the desire to reproduce.

Some animals are able to process their emotions and react to them accordingly, either accepting the fear or deciding to give what they're afraid of another chance. Snakes it seems, are able to feel fear, but not able to choose to push it aside. They learn purely by experience and if you ever hope to make them learn otherwise you'll be waiting a long time, and may never change them because that reaction is dead set.

So my opinion is that snakes specifically, do hold emotion but it is a black-and-white sort of emotion based off of individual events that have happened to them, and fear will always win out over the good if something bad were to happen to the snake.

So;
good events(tolerance / happiness) > instinct (tolerance / fear)
bad events(Fear / anger) > good events (tolerance / happiness)
Bad event responses become instinct.

Just how I see it.

[jaleely]

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

[Kaetlinv]

i like your explanation more than mine jaleely. :3

[jaleely]

hehe i'm good like that.
Actually i tend to ramble, a lot *lol* i'm also turning into one of those old people that tells animal stories all the time...like even though i know i'm making people uncomfortable, or they don't care, i keep talking...and talking...and talking...hehehe

[Kaetlinv]

I've learned to tone that down >.< I do it on accident every now and again still. Doesn't even have to be with animals. I do it with everything I know / have made >XD

[snake man12]

Originally Posted by jaleely

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

It's amazing how this fight is still going. She might have a better temperature gradient in the pipe.

Would you like me to edit something for you and make it false? Seriously just pick a topic you want falsified.

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by jaleely

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

I refuse to participate in any other part of this.....

Wiki anything can be edited, contributed to or fabricated by ANYONE with a PC and internet connection.

Therefore, as I have warned on this forum and many others before, I can log into wikipedia and say I'm batman, and until someone else edits it, it will stay there.

Never place 100% blind trust in a wiki.

[Lankyrob]

Wiki CAN be a good starting point for research but i would never trust anything on there without double and triple checking it elsewhere first

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Wiki CAN be a good starting point for research but i would never trust anything on there without double and triple checking it elsewhere first

exactly Rob.. I joined wikipedia so I could correct some of the false entries.

[Jay]

Wow this not a good thread, so much miss information!!

No matter how bad you want your snake to act like a mammal it WILL not, no memory, no compassion, no trust, it is simply impossible.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by jaleely

Reptiles have memory. It is not a ghost neuron or whatever. The word is "accept". Snakes can experience fear, comfort, relaxation, sexual desire...or sexual instinct, however, it is still a need and a desire that drives them.
Obviously some sort of enjoyment or pleasure or at least comfort, when they find a good basking spot, or they stay somewhere that feels safe.

They have brains. *shrug* nuff said.

Lobsters don't have brains. I've been diving and grabbed and poked at lobsters, and they even exhibit behaviors that are learned. Mostly instinct, however once they realize my fingers are not food, they do not crawl towards them again. So...learned behavior?
Anyway, point is brain=learning. Instinct is a drive that can be overcome, or expanded upon.

I taught our first bp that food was at the end of a pvc pipe.
we only fed her with the pipes, and only put food at the end...and always switched the configuration of the pipes.
That snake roared through those pipes until she go to the end and ate that food.
Why would she do it faster each time, unless she'd learned that at the end was what she wanted? Why would she go into the pipe to begin with? Instinct may tell her that it was a dark closed space, but why would she leave one comfortable dark space to enter the pipe? Why would she do that when we hadn't put the food at the end yet, and could't smell it?

not to mention someone else already stated how snakes have personality...it's based on their life experiences and what they've learned about how humans treat them.
Otherwise, each one would act the same every time to every stimuli.

And there's nothing wrong with wikipedia.

Judging from your post, you do a lot of your research on Wikipedia. Not good

[Wildside]

Originally Posted by Jay

Wow this not a good thread, so much miss information!!

No matter how bad you want your snake to act like a mammal it WILL not, no memory, no compassion, no trust, it is simply impossible.

Do you not handle your snakes?

[Jay]

Only as needed.

As much as everyone hates to hear it, handling can lead to stress.
Since 85% of us keep snakes for our pleasure anyways, what's the fun of having one if you don't touch it. lol

Yet when I do handle some are nippy, some flee and some couldn't give a damn.
When I'd do water cages in my jcp cage he would always come out and climb my arm, you would have to be a fool to believe he was showing affection.

[Wildside]

Originally Posted by Jay

Only as needed.

As much as everyone hates to hear it, handling can lead to stress.
Since 85% of us keep snakes for our pleasure anyways, what's the fun of having one if you don't touch it. lol

Yet when I do handle some are nippy, some flee and some couldn't give a damn.
When I'd do water cages in my jcp cage he would always come out and climb my arm, you would have to be a fool to believe he was showing affection.

I don't believe he was showing affection and I agree with everything else you said in this post. But, is it not valid to assume that a snake, take your jcp for example, trusts you enough not to eat him?

[infernalis]

Originally Posted by Wildside

Do you not handle your snakes?

I know the question was directed at Jay, so I shall interject for a moment.

My snakes are observation animals, and seldom get touched. Many of them I have to tong feed them, and if I need to take them out, I have to make sure they have a mouse in their mouth before I reach in, or i will get tagged.

And, no they are not hots, Just plain colubrids.

Never seen anything wrong with admiring them through the glass.