Question: Ethics in the reptile business

[sSNAKESs.com]

Ok, all personal feelings aside here, i can speak for myself with a 15 animal collection, there are days when i walk into my reptile room in the morning and it is just crazyness, if someone was with me they would probably think i kept my animals in poor conditions but really i just saw the mess and it needs to be cleaned up. This is with 15 animals. Could you imgaine 250+ animals, lizards, colubrids, not just boids who poop once every 2 weeks, plus wholesale going out the back everyday, to all over the gta. People dont see the big picture, i have been there more times then i can count and sure a few times i saw a messy cage, but other times it was pristine conditions. There is no way you can run a operation like that and have it 100% clean 24 hours a day and 7 days a week. Reptiles are messy animals, they do to there habitiat how they see fit, flip water bowls, defecate wherever and whenever they choose to, the messes are cleaned up as quickly as they are found. The "bad rep" that they have is mostly from people who feel the need to jump on the bandwagon. I am not defending anyone here, i am stating the reality of owning a reptile operation of that size, retail and wholesale and from my personal experiences in going there on "numorous"occassions.

[silke]

ok Jeff...i have held my tongue...
over turned water bowls and poop aside there are other conditions which can make for a worse impression such as cramped enclosures and insufficient lighting and these are conditions which are within a keepers control and are not things that can change from one minute to another
there is no excuse for cramped enclosures...if you know you are getting animals in you prepare for it and have things ready ahead of time
we are not talking about newbies who need to do research ahead of time but about people who have been doing this for years
now i'm sure some of you will be more than willing to point out that i have not been 'herping' for very long and i am not Nearly as experienced as you may be but these are lives that we are responsible for and some things should be common sense

PS - AztecFred - way to open a Big Ole can of worms dude !!!

[V.aw]

oh man oh man. Reading the post by matt, man that was arrogant!!

Aztec Fred is an American speaking of problems down there and what flips him off. So i stated we have the same thing up here. a respected store, and a respected guy, and most of us cant understand what he's respected for? (refer to silkes post) I dont think i even had to mention the store name, everyone probably had a good drift of what i was talking about.

And matt, i dont dislike the store because i dont like Grant or something. or because i don't like its name. I dont like the store because of the conditions the animals are kept, and i feel a store like that should not profit from this or even be allowed to remain open. I think thats a very good reason NOT to bite my tongue. or tie my fingers in this case..

I figured id give my opinion as this thread opened my eyes to some problems our way. If people choose to ignore it. fine go for it. everyone is allowed to have their own opinion. I dont see where i once said in my post that others shouldn't shop there. I feel between mine and Fred's post they should be able to put one and one together, and make their own decision. I dont "bite" my tongue when animals are being "abused". I've only been in the store a couple of times, and the conditions IMHO were atrocious.

[V.aw]

Jeff on top of that. IMO once again, i feel that you shouldnt keep that many animals if you arent prepared to make staff available to care for them as need be.

Instead of ordering, say 60 savannah monitors and cramming them into a tank for the sole purpose of making a buck by wholesaling them. Why not buy 10? and as you need more, order more. Or expand your space as silke said if you recieve that many. And jeff, you say your conditions are comparible. Iam sure you have a thing called quarentine methods dont you? I really really doubt your methods are anything like theirs.

I dont want to argue to much about this, just because I like this website, I thinK jeff, and the other mods do a great job and are very helpful. I just added to this post as i read aztec freds thread and like i said, it all related.

[V.aw]

Ughh sorry for the multiple responses.
my post to Linds is. I dont recommend anyone to others that i dont personally buy from. I know you had good intentions on telling someone about the animal available, so i apologize if that came off sounding as if i was attacking. I just wanted to hear others opinions on the store, incase mine was a little too strong, or maybe i went there on a bad day. Iam just going by the couple of times ive been in there on top of the amount of complaints ive seen. So, lets hear some other people tell us their good comments about pcpc.

[jason h]

OK V.aw
how exactly is a store that has as many animals "weekly" go in and out supposed to quarantne you can have a quarantine room sure but you get say 10 burms this week put them in the quaratine room next week you get 10 balls where are you supposed to put them? you cant put them on the floor and you cant put them in the room with the burms because if you did the burms would have to stay in quarantine even longer there fore nothing would ever leave the quarantine room period because as more animals go into said room they could affect the animals that have been there for an month.
I have delt with grant on many occasions and bought n many hard to find snakes etc from him .If you as a buyer did the right steps when gettting and animal such as quarantining YOUR new arrivals and knowing they are coming from a store that deals in as many reptiles as grants then you as an experienced well researched buyer should have no problem.
Also you have to realize that grant also takes unwanted animals that the public walk through the door with,which accounts for many of the animals that are underweight or have scars etc. and are not that way do to the condition grant keeps them in.
And as far as grant earning respect in the reptile world all you have to do is pay attention to what goes on around and you can see ,when boamania asked for help when he had bad luck while everyone else was treating him like@##$ Grant was the one who stepped up and gave him feeders (another store that could possibly take potential bussiness away) yet he gratiously offered his assistance.its stuff like this that has given Grant his well deserved respect!!!
and as far as our little gold trophies they are there because we care enough to give back to this site for our endless hours we enjoy from it!

[V.aw]

Look, i didnt mean for this post to go this far. I just wanted to see how others saw PCPC. And i felt that Aztec fred's post was well done. Ultimatly theres nothing that can be done, iam a little guy with absolutly no say in what goes on. So dont let my opinion bother you. Its just my opinion, wrong or right iam still entitled to it. I dont need endless responses trying to convince me that iam wrong to change my mind. Grant is a helpful guy, I know this. I never said he wasnt. I just really dont agree with the large amounts of animals coming in and out if they aren't prepared to handle it. And no, i've never been in that situation of having that many animals to care for at once, and my collection is only about 25 animals, so i could only imagine. But my question to myself is, would i put myself in that situation? I mean, i have a hard enough time caring for my collection. The store is there on a typical 9-5. Their job is the animals. If i was with my collection 9-5 it would be completely immaculent. I apologize for any stupidity or false opinions that this may have caused, ive been in the hobby for a couple of years and worked in a few stores to know what kind of crap goes on in the trade, and its pretty depressing. Iam not out to attack individuals, i just think about the animals.

[Lovely Monica]

hello, i just want to include, We have been to Port Credit, and I never seen anything wrong with the way the animals are kept there. All the enclousers seemed to be clean and well kept. It was nice to see such a large selection of reptiles. We even held a few of the snakes and on a closer inspection, the animals we held at least seemed to be extremely healthy and alert. I understand the work which is involved in caring for alot of animals. My boyfriend has been keeping snakes since he was in grade school, and since he has been in his early teens he has always kept over 50 animals at one time. We presently have over 300 boa's that are in our own personal collection. Its a constant choir changing and cleaning their bins, we keep them in a rack system, its easier maintainance. We use paper towels, and although this may be more costly then newspaper, it cleaner and healthier for the animals. We also house well over 100 colubrids and they are the messiest of them all, their bins get washed and changed twice a week. But there are days when we come in and it seemed that every single animals decided to soil their enclousers at the same time. A conspiracy I tell yeah!!! *LOL* But if someone was to come in on that day, they would think we keep our animals in poor condition. Come back later on that day and then seen how they ar kept. So sure one might go into Port Credit Pets in the morning and see that some of the enclousers are soiled, but come back later on that day and see the difference. Grant has some really hard workers in his store, I seen how busy they keep themselves personally. So I would venture to say that one can not truly cast an oppinion on a place unless they have visited it time and time again and then only then can they make an honest opinion, so unless you have seen psps on a number of visit then I say, dont be so quick to judge.
Grant has been in this business for many years, you dont have that kind of longevity unless you are doing something right. So if he had such poor quality animals then why has he lasted so long.
thanx!!!

[Grant vg]

on the subject of pet shops in generel, ppl really have to realize that unlike a private breeder,......

with 300 animals in tight fitting rubbermaid racks and condensed stackable plastic and melamine enclosures with paper towel as substrate, sterile water bowls, and one hide, if any,

a store has that many animals, if not more, along with many different species, with different requirements, then most keepers could care to keep, not to mention the fact that most pet stores need to keep there animals in visible aquariums, with attractive looking substrates, vines, etc ... something i know all private breeders would go insane trying to maintain on a daily, or up to the hour cleanliness. And keeping every single enclosures substrate completely clean by changing them daily or weekly is alot of money down the drain.

Along with...100+ customers comming through daily asking questions, calling for directions, prices, animal inquiries, and so on and so on. Not to mention getting up EVERY DAY, Doing the same thing day in and day out to hundreds of animals. Along with daily/weekly/monthly "owning a business" duties like accounting, etc...
As well as bad times like some of our candian stores are having right now, still having to pay employees to stay in the store and clean poop all day.
And to put the cherry on the top, having your inventory, along with wholesaling if applicable, changing daily and weekly. Thats like a private breeder having hundreds of animals comming in and born weekly, having to get them all quarantined, fed, wormed, etc...then sold, then doing it all over again the next week for 52 weeks a year.
Just to keep your customers happy and to pay the bills.
Sounds like a great job eh?

With all this said, give pet shops a break, i know i wouldn't be in this hobby if there were no pet shops around.
This isn't directly related to Grant Crossman, whos in question, but all pet shops everywhere.
Sure, most of the pet stores keep animals in less then perfact conditions, to what i would keep em. But thats life.
Thats why we are keepers/breeders and they are pet shop owners. 99% of us on these forums could not handle the pet shop life.
I have a hard enough time settleing in 5 new aquisitions.
let alone running a buisness and dealing with hundreds of animals.

Personally, i dont like the way most animals are kept in pet shops, as thats not what i would keep them like.
But what are they're options?
The standards of keeping reptiles are quickly rising, and most pet shops are slowly following.
And to think, highly Respected Mr. Roy Stockwell, used to keep bloods in plastic garbage cans as thats how they got them to feed and stay healthy back in the 80's.
Times are changin, dont be so quick to lay the slap down.
I know i have in the past, and after reading this thread, i think ill give pet shops a little more slack then what i did b4.
It all cant be perfect, but its those that rise above and beyond to mimic private breeders that should be acknowledged, not the less then perfect ones getting bashed.
Look around, these stores are open.

Gvg

[sSNAKESs.com]

Breeders vs Pet stores... I do the same thing here aswell, but if you really think about it, really how humane is it to keep adult ball pythons in a sweaterbox, which ALL ball pythons breeders do.

[V.aw]

Gvg, Very good points.

However, i worked in 3 seperate pet stores. One running a reptile dept all on my own. We had at least 100 animals, and i was taking care of all of them making minimum wage. I worked in a mall, forced to deal with a HUGE flow of customers, and answer alot of phone calls, as well as deal with these wholesalers(all of which for min wage). It isnt an easy job. i completely 100% agree. Just keeping a store open is an amazing feat these days with all of the taxes. I just do not agree with the current ethics, and my point of view wont change until i see some changes, BUT as i said, iam a little guy my opinion means diddly squat .
But as you said everyone has to make money, and as monica said he has been around for a long time. And i do applaud him for that. I dont think many people would be able to run an independent pet store for the amount of time that he has.

[sSNAKESs.com]

Quarentine in a pet store???? Adam what are you thinking bro??? Say you quarentine the animals for a month, and you have 300 animals... well you have to feed those animals at least twice, so you just paid an additional 1500$ to feed them while in quarentine, so there goes your profit.

[sSNAKESs.com]

Adam, which pet store in a mall has over 100 reptiles??? im just curious because i have been to every mall pet store from oshawa to oakville and i have never seen more then 25 animals tops in any mall pet store?!?

[marisa]

Don't like it don't buy there.

Thats been the "motto" I have learned in the past three years.

marisa

[sSNAKESs.com]

I can even put my own husbandry down, when i think about humanity, how humane is it for me to keep a 6 foot boa in a 4 x 2 x 12" enclosure... Sure that is the rule of thumb people use, but really if you think about it isnt "humane" at all to keep a snake which in the wild climbs trees in a cage that is 4 x 2 x 12" high. You guys also have to realize that pet stores offer temorary housing for animals, the idea is to sell the animal(s) to someone who gives them their permanent home.