Advice on New BP Home

[exwizard]

Originally Posted by Lankyrob

Couldnt agree more with any part of this

Having no interest or intention of ever breeding all my snakes are pets and i like A) giving them the biggest space practical and B) having them all out on display. I totally understand why breeders use tubs and racks and have no argument with those that do - just not for me

Plus some of us use racks even for our pets and yeah, space is an issue. I do spend time with them pulling them out frequently and handling them regularly and they seem quite content with their living arrangements I think vivs look great and if it were possible, Id do it but atm thats not possible for me.

I know I dont have any BPs but the same thing applies to all species of snakes.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by mykee

LOL!!!
Are you two actually comparing a human to a reptilian brain?!

Some more than others, Mykee, some more than others.

And Gunner11's comments were well put. Appreciate the response there.

As for the debate between tubs and larger enclosures, again it is down to the keeper on what their goal and situation is. Im not saying that you are torturing your snake by keeping them in a tub. I know that size is always a concern. I am saying that I think they will benefit from a larger enclosure if that is an option.

As for my zoo examples, actually no, they were not all mammals. Lizards are actually being shown to benefit from cage enrichment as well. This is not my opinion folks, these are scientific studies done with control groups. What Im telling you is that you need to read up on this a little more before assuming you just have a big dumb animal in a cage. I used those examples with things like bears and other mammals because people used to say the same things about them as you are saying about snakes, and for all the same justifications.

Snakefood, it seems like you have some understanding of neuroanatomy. You're somewhat right in saying that snakes only have a 'primal' or derived brain. However, the fact that they do not have any of the more extensive cortex or neocortex does not negate the fact that these animals, like all animals, go through developmental stages. Now, if you know anything about neural development, you know that stimulation is key to healthy brain tissue. By raising them their entire life in a tiny tub with no stimulation, how exactly do you think that development is fostered? Do you think the stimulation required to keep development progressing is achieved in that tub? Or do you think, like I do, that animal is probably developmentally challenged as a result. It may feel safe, it is fed, it will most likely reproduce. So from all outward appearances, it is the same. However, I have a feeling it is also the equivalent of a stunted, handicapped snake.

Again, do what you like. Like all husbandry, it is dictated by the keeper and not the animal. Keeping them in small tubs is not going to keep them from reproducing or whatever else you might want. But don't be so definitive in telling me it doesn't have any effect, or that a nice big enclosure is for my benefit only. Just because you can't see it, or don't know about it, doesn't make it true.

[Snakefood]

Jarich:

I personally have both a rack system and larger "viv-like" enclosures. Those snakes that are in tubs do get out more (they explore my bed, couch,ect..) once the kiddo is in bed!!

I also beleive that it has alot to do with the species of snake we're discussing. example:

Corn snakes are a more active snake, in the wild they can and do "hunt" and "track" thier prey, so developmental stimulation may be more important to them than say a B/P, who, even in the wild usually sits in one spot, waits for something appetizing to come by and strikes.

So I can see where your coming from as it pertains to certain species who are more active. but for those who would sit curled in the same safe spot, and have a very small personal "territory" would not be unusually affected by having a smaller environment in captivity.

Also, in response to the zoo thing, many reptiles have been proven to have more than just the "primal" brain and so your analogy stands as far as they are concerned. Which is why Wayne has gone to the extents he has on his sav enclosure. snakes however have been proven to only have the primal brain. Like you said that does not definitively prove that captivity doesn't affect them in any way, however studies have also been done on longevity in captivity vs the wild, and when proper care and attention has been given, the lifespan always increases in captivity, so we can't be completely on the wrong track!!

At least we're not as far off as when we thought the world was flat!!!LOL

[jarich]

Too right! And I agree, with the proper care these animals can live much longer than is normal in the wild. Again, Im not saying that tubs are torture or anything like that. I just get a little frustrated when people say that tiny little tubs are the only way to go and everything else is useless.

Im surprised to hear you say that you think BP are not an active snake in the wild though. They do not only ambush prey. They are active hunters in the wild and are vastly invasive as a species. They follow their prey species, they do not merely sit in burrows and wait endlessly. Ambush hunting is one way they hunt, yes, but not the only way.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by jarich

Too right! And I agree, with the proper care these animals can live much longer than is normal in the wild. Again, Im not saying that tubs are torture or anything like that. I just get a little frustrated when people say that tiny little tubs are the only way to go and everything else is useless.

Im surprised to hear you say that you think BP are not an active snake in the wild though. They do not only ambush prey. They are active hunters in the wild and are vastly invasive as a species. They follow their prey species, they do not merely sit in burrows and wait endlessly. Ambush hunting is one way they hunt, yes, but not the only way.

I dont believe anyone on this thread has said this at any point? I even went back and scanned through all the posts, so if i missed it please show me

[Snakefood]

true, but the point I was trying to make is they are a way less active snake than corns. I wasn't trying to say that's the only way they hunt, just on average they would rather "ambush" than stalk, especially if they have found a nice safe place where prey comes by often.

Also remember I am just learning my B/P stuff!! I only have 1 and have only had him for a month, other than that I am experienced in corns. have successfully kept an iguana into her 20's and had 2 anoles as a kid. so thats my reptile "experience", however I love to read alot about my chosen species and of course get lots of good information and advice from all you good people.

[jarich]

No you're absolutely right Rob, nothing like that on this thread. Sorry for making it seem like that was from anyone here. I was more referring to another discussion I was having with some breeders on a different forum. As you know, its an old debate done many times.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Snakefood

true, but the point I was trying to make is they are a way less active snake than corns. I wasn't trying to say that's the only way they hunt, just on average they would rather "ambush" than stalk, especially if they have found a nice safe place where prey comes by often.

Also remember I am just learning my B/P stuff!! I only have 1 and have only had him for a month, other than that I am experienced in corns. have successfully kept an iguana into her 20's and had 2 anoles as a kid. so thats my reptile "experience", however I love to read alot about my chosen species and of course get lots of good information and advice from all you good people.

Ya, I hear you, but keep in mind that corns are generally considered diurnal, while BP are nocturnal. So a lot of that activity difference is largely just due to when you may be around to see it.

Its also great that you enjoy reading so much, a lot of experienced people could do more of that. Experience is very important obviously, but so is scientific knowledge. The two together is essential in my opinion.

[Snakefood]

Originally Posted by jarich

Ya, I hear you, but keep in mind that corns are generally considered diurnal, while BP are nocturnal. So a lot of that activity difference is largely just due to when you may be around to see it.

Its also great that you enjoy reading so much, a lot of experienced people could do more of that. Experience is very important obviously, but so is scientific knowledge. The two together is essential in my opinion.

couldn't agree more!!

[TalonNC]

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...

If only you all could of seen my little guy last night...he was knocking the thermostat probe against the side of his tank which i usual decipher as "I want out..to roam" so i put him on the couch and he was all over the place...he was really hyper for some odd reason i moved him to my bed and he couldn't sit still (except for 60secs of telescoping)..

so my opinion on the matter ..is He is content living in a phone booth...but on the nights he wants to roam...he wants the room to do so... so it's one of those cases where he Rather have it and not need it ...then need it and not have it...kinda like insurance and condoms.

Thank you for all the advice...i think I'm gonna think long and hard about the exo terra. My BP is not to be tucked away in a bin or tub...He is the only one i ever plan to have. and prefer to be able to see him daily.

[Lankyrob]

Originally Posted by TalonNC

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...
.

Thats what a forum is!! Lots of people with a joint interest but different opinions and experience sharing these things - hopefully in a way where the discussion can get passionate but not out of hand.

A good debate is good for all, its when it descends into pettyness and name calling that it is pathetic and silly

[Snakefood]

^^^ what Rob said.^^^ Debate is fine, and this thread has stayed fairly good. some threads get out of hand with name calling and insults, this one hasn't, so......

It's all good!!

[jarich]

Originally Posted by TalonNC

I want to apologize as i didn't realize my little question would stir up such debate...

Thank you for all the advice...i think I'm gonna think long and hard about the exo terra. My BP is not to be tucked away in a bin or tub...He is the only one i ever plan to have. and prefer to be able to see him daily.

Ya, please don't ever apologize for that. The most interesting conversations are the ones that stir up debate!