Cat food for dubia

[stephanbakir]

Wow, its its 40%, the average must have gone up since I finished working there, I remember we were above average on everything

[jarich]

Working at a dog/cat food plant must have been a pretty smelly experience! I used to deliver to a rendering plant when I was working for Coke. Yikes! I couldnt believe people could work in that smell

[stephanbakir]

I worked in sales, at a pet store. (workin 3 jobs at the time, lol)

[jarich]

Ah, I see! Sorry, my mistake. I thought you worked at the food company itself.

[stephanbakir]

I worked specifically for Blue, but out of a pet shop.

[candyraver69]

Originally Posted by jarich

Im just a new roach breeder, so Im genuinely asking out of curiosity. Perhaps Im not aware of various breeding problems with roaches yet. Im just wondering why the desire to feed dog food or cat food? If what you feed them goes pretty much into your reptiles then the question is, would you feed your reptile dog food or cat food? Or any other processed foods for that matter. My thinking was, if I can I should try to keep it as natural as possible. Ive been feeding them oats (which are super cheap if you buy in bulk, less than a dollar a pound), raisins, and then whatever vegetables happen to be on sale (for the last couple weeks its been green beans). I also cant think of any need for a high protein diet for them. I cant remember any examples I have ever read of any entomophagic reptile having a lack of protein as a nutritional issue. Is there a reason you went with the high protein stuff?

Because what you feed them goes in to your reptile is precisely why you want high protein (and high calcium for lizards). Don't think of it as a protein deficiency issue as much as, how many roaches does your reptile need to eat to get the right amount of protein and what else is going to come along with that (fat, exoskeleton, etc). You could feed the roaches tofu and steak I suppose if you wanted to be more natural, but cat food works well.

I know I suggested cat food in one dubia thread for gutloading for tarantulas. For lizards you certainly want to add some form of calcium additionally to the cat food, or dust the roaches right before feeding. You can also put jurasical in the water you mix up your water crystals instead to add calcium.

[Lankyrob]

We dust with calcipm before feeding ours

[Freebody]

I dust mine with phosphorus-free calcium with vit d3. same with the snails he eats which is the other 50% of his diet.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by candyraver69

Because what you feed them goes in to your reptile is precisely why you want high protein (and high calcium for lizards). Don't think of it as a protein deficiency issue as much as, how many roaches does your reptile need to eat to get the right amount of protein and what else is going to come along with that (fat, exoskeleton, etc). You could feed the roaches tofu and steak I suppose if you wanted to be more natural, but cat food works well.

I know I suggested cat food in one dubia thread for gutloading for tarantulas. For lizards you certainly want to add some form of calcium additionally to the cat food, or dust the roaches right before feeding. You can also put jurasical in the water you mix up your water crystals instead to add calcium.

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

[stephanbakir]

Originally Posted by jarich

I suppose that was my worry, so let's go over this in greater detail.

First, my mentioning of protein deficiency was for a point. There is no need to ever worry about the protein intake of your reptile if it is eating any kind of animal, whether invertebrate or vertebrate. Both sources will provide an excess of protein, and your reptile will expel that excess in its waste. This is especially true of invertebrate prey.

Second, increasing the protein in the diet of the roaches will not increase the protein make up of the roach. They too will expel the added protein from their bodies after breaking down the protein into the amino acids they need. But, you are probably now thinking that the advantage comes from the gutloading of cat food in their stomachs. However, gutloading is for vitamins and minerals, NOT for proteins. Which brings us to the next point.

Third, cat and dog food are bad for your reptiles. We all know not to feed our reptiles cat or dog food directly, and with good reason. It's comparable to feeding your children fast food. If we know these are not good to give the reptile directly, then how is gutloading with them good? They are filled with lots of pretty nasty and unhealthy things, as well as lots of preservatives. BHA and BHT are common, as is one very important preservative for this thread, ethoxyquin. I mention that one specifically because it is also commonly used as a pesticide. Roaches have specifically evolved organs to deal with toxins, so while it may not effect them, gutloading for your reptile may likely effect kidney and liver function over time.

I understand that maybe these are small things that aren't going to immediately strike your reptile dead. However, its definitely not a good thing, and if possible, I think should not be common practice. It's also easy to line tubs with oats or other dried grains, or even flour. They're actually cheaper, have plenty of protein, and of course are much more natural. I think for animals, just like people, the least processed, most natural food you can give them is always the best bet.

Really interesting read. May I ask how the giant glucoseamine argument works with reptiles and muscle density/elasticity?

[jarich]

I'm not sure I understand the question. Are you asking if the high chitin amount, and therefore high levels of glutamine, allow for a more elastic muscle composition?

[stephanbakir]

Feeding them wheat, how are herps effected by glucosamine?

[jarich]

I think you might mean gluten? Wheat contains no glucosamine. Glucosamine is created by synthesizing glucose and the amino acid glutamine. Its a building block for cartilage, tendons, ligaments, nails, shells, etc. For instance, chitin (bug exoskeletons) is a type of glucosamine. You can get glucosamine from wheat, but only by fermenting it.

[stephanbakir]

Wait, brain fart. Your right.
I meant gluten, that thing they bred into wheat to make it more elastic once processed that most people can't process yet (heard something about this on a talk)

[jarich]

First, I suppose I should mention for any new keepers reading this (I know you know better Stephan) that I am not condoning throwing a bunch of bleached white flour into the roach enclosure. Im talking about whole wheat, minimally processed flour as a part of a mix of grains which should mostly be made up of oats in my opinion.

As for your question about gluten, we can all pretty much digest it. People with Celiac's disease actually have what amounts to an allergic reaction to it, but they can still digest it too. The increase in the amount of people with the disease, and other less extreme reactions like it, could be one of a few things. First, that we are eating much more processed wheat in our diets now than before. Second, that we are getting much better at diagnosing this as a problem. Third, our processing of the wheat actually increases its gluten content by a ridiculous amount. That bleached out white flour most people use has been specifically formulated to have as much gluten as possible because it makes baking easier.

However, to specifically answer your question, the amino acids that make up gluten have indeed increased somewhat in the last 100 years, but its not a huge increase and probably not responsible for the increase in reactions we are seeing. Also, it depends what type of wheat you are talking about. There are certain types that have a higher amount of gluten than others, like red spring wheat for instance. Once again, its mostly to do with the crap we do to food after we harvest it though.

For the purpose of this thread, I cant imagine it making any difference to the monitor. Again the roaches will digest the gluten into amino acids and excrete any excess, so no need to worry about its effect on your lizard.