My run of bad luck continues....

[Will0W783]

Feebo, I am so very sorry to hear about your blood python. However, there are a number of other things it could be. About a month and a half ago, my male hypo boa went neurological on me and went from fat happy snake to skeletal in two weeks. His muscles all basically atrophied. I thought for sure I was dealing with IBD and was a wreck. But it turned out he had genetic kidney disease, and my vet and I did several courses of antibiotic to stop the concurrent respiratory infection and force-feeding to keep his strength up. He did not make it, but none of my other snakes have gotten ill.
Also she could have injured her head. If she managed to break her back or fracture a neck vertebra mildly enough she could survive but have motion impairments. Infections that have gotten to the bloodstream cause septicemia which has neurological signs; commonly pneumonia not caught soon enough does this. Finally, what have you been using to treat mites? If you've been using pest strips and the snake came into physical contact with one, that could cause toxicity. Usually this is a problem with Vapona-containing pest strips. I personally only use Nix remedy because of its very low toxicity. If you've been using Provent-a-Mite I do not think it is supposed to be used ON the snakes, and if it gets into their water I don't know if it can also be toxic. Just know there are other things it could be, but exercise the utmost caution until you're sure.

When was the last time she ate? Has she ever regurgitated her food? Are there any signs of respiratory distress? Usually with IBD you'll notice the snake throwing up its food before any neurological symptoms appear. Hopefully you've got a good herp vet who can guide you through the process, but right now you're doing all you can. Make sure you take the blood python's entire cage out of the snake room, and if you can't vacuum out all the bedding and spray the cage down with a bleach solution (I would recommend making it stronger than the usual 10%, perhaps 25% to make sure you kill everything). Let the bleach solution dry for a few hours, then wipe the cage down with paper towels wet with water. If the cage is light enough to carry, just take it outside and hose it down after the bleach treatment. Make sure the blood python is in a completely separate room from your other snakes, and do anything you need to do with your other snakes before going into the room with the blood. After doing anything with the blood python, change your clothes and scrub down your hands/arms with soap and water for at least 30 seconds and then use hand sanitizer.

I wish you the best of luck and I hope it turns out ok in the end. Please keep us posted.

[Feebo]

The Blood python was put down less than ten minutes after I entered the vets building Willow. In answer to some of you questions Willow, no she hadn`t shown ANY other signs of ANY sort of distress proir to the diagnosed IBD showing it`s self. She was eating and had eaten just a week before showing signs of illness. I didn`t find a single mite in her tank. The mites originated in the Rainbow Boas tank, I kept finding them on the outside of the tank aswell for a good few days after I treated the tank with Frontline. No other snakes were infected with mites. I`ve always used Frontline to treat mites, I treat the snake with 3ml per kilo of snake and a little squuirt for good measure in the corners and runners. As for disinfecting the affected tanks and the snake room, I`ve bought a poultry house fogger as recommended by the herp vet. I`m using dilute F10 and fumigating the room every day for the next few months. I`m also disinfecting the insides of the tanks with F10. Every last non essential things has been removed from that room and I`m up there every day disinfecting and cleaning the room and the snakes. As for your comment Julian, yes I do agree that a tissue sample would have been ideal. So I also don`t consider it a rock solid diagnosis as it isn`t backed up with proof. The vet has basically made a diagnosis based on the history and the visual symptoms, taking into account that the snakes affected were Python and Boa. I did ask if other illnesses could present the same symptoms and he gave me a very confident, No. Then explained his reasoning as above. I do see your point but at the same time I really have little choice but to listen to the vet, to an extent anyway, it`s always good to be armed with as much knowledge as possible in the first place isn`t it. So basically it`s clean clean clean, disinfect disinfect disinfect, watch for symptoms and pray I don`t lose any more snakes. I`ve got eggs due to hatch next month, selling babies while all this is going on can`t happen obviously so I`ll be housing them for longer than planned. I have a number of someone else to speak to about this so I`ll be calling her soon aswell. I`m doing everything I can here but I don`t see how I can ever carry on with breeding and selling unless I can have my snakes tested for IBD. A lung wash will show it up apparently, but as I say, that conversation hasn`t been had yet.....

[Feebo]

Here is my fumigator. It was £256 so $300 ish. It leaves every single surface in the room "thouroughly disinfected" walls, floor, ceiling and behind tanks, everywhere. I`ll be using it at least a few tiumes a month after all this is over. I think I`d have to highly reccomend anyone with a snake room and thousands of $ or £ worth of snakes get one of these at some point when you`re feeling flush. It`s worth it just for knowing absolutely every single surface in the room is disinfected. I`m glad it`s something I can go on using really.....

[Will0W783]

Oh man, I'm so sorry it turned out that way. Are you having a necropsy done on the blood python? Unfortunately, to the best of my knowledge, the only really decisive way to test for it is to test brain tissue which must be done postmortem. If your vet feels confident it's IBD, then it probably was, but I'd still get the testing done to be safe. I have heard that you can't buy or sell anything for at least 1 year after the last snake shows symptoms of IBD, so if your others stay clean for the next year, you should be ok. Some people say 3 years, but my vet said he usually goes by 1 year when we were wondering if that was what my boa had. I wouldn't go testing all the others just yet, because it can take a while to show up. I would just get the brain tissue of the blood python done and go from there.

[Feebo]

Noooo there wasn`t an autopsy unfortunatly. I couldn`t afford both the treatment AND the autopsy because I`ve had two big money things come up right at the same time. If you look back a page or two I explain about the vets reasoning for his diagnosis, even in the absence of tissue samples. If I were to lose another one, I should be able to afford an autopsy but obviously I`d rather not! The treatment remains the same with or without anyway, fumigate, clean clean clean and watch out for symptoms. Whatever happens it`s a year, as you say, nobody in, nobody out.

[Nafun]

Every time you post Feebo, my heart jumps, because I'm afraid you've had more snakes show symptoms.

I continue to wish you all the best.

[shaunyboy]

your big carpets still doing fine so thats the best sign yet mate.carpets dont last long when theres ibd about.im not slagging your vet off as he will have gave you answers to the best of his current knowledge.i know i keep going on about my vet mate but im so lucky to have him so close to where i live.he has told me in the past there are things that throw up similar symptoms to ibd that isnt ibd.a brocken neck as willow suggested being one of the things i remember.there were a lot more mate.my vets is also the special lecturer at nottingham universty on zoo and wildlife.this guy knows his stuff mate and i have 100% faith in him. so id have to disagree with your vets resounding no on the does anything else show symptoms like ibd.ive still got everything crossed for you mate.
all the best shaun

[Will0W783]

Yeah, Shaun, I have to continue to disagree as well. There are multiple reasons why a snake would show neurological symptoms, and the fact that it ate only a week before it started showing neuro signs makes me leery of agreeing it was IBD. It's usually not that sudden, but more of a gradual progression with the regurging as the first sign. I was so sure my boa had it, but it turned out to be kidney disease and the toxicosis from the messed up calcium/phosphorus levels in his blood was causing weakness, muscle atrophy and spasms. There ARE things that will look like IBD that are not, and there is really NO way of knowing for sure without postmortem testing/autopsy. Personally, I'd have scrounged up the money somehow-I'd never be able to sleep at night not knowing for 100% sure. Best of luck to you Feebs, you're in my prayers! I really really hope it was a one-time thing and everyone else will be ok.

[Feebo]

Well I`m facing eviction aswell Willow so I couldn`t scrounge up the money, I`m living on a financial knife edge and if I have nowhere to live, the snakes have nowhere to live. The vet said he was taking the history into account also when he said what he said. I do see your point and obviously I don`t want IBD so it being something else would be better. I just had to listen to the vet I was able to see at the time, my usual herp vet is on holiday. I just had to listen and follow his recommendations, I had to.... Arguing with him wasn`t really an option lol Thanks very much for your thoughts guys and girls, it means a lot

[Azzarth]

Feebo, reading your posts made me feel so much better about what I thought was my bad life.

I am so very sorry about your pet, hopefully that fumigator will work very well. I know what you mean by financial knife-edge, I'm going through the same thing atm. My brother broke both his legs after falling off our upper deck, our water-heater had a blow-out and flooded out entire downstairs, so we have to buy new carpet, furniture, and my Xbox was ruined and we just got through paying a $1,600 plumbing bill. Hopefully some good will show up in our lives, eh?

[shaunyboy]

Originally Posted by Feebo

Well I`m facing eviction aswell Willow so I couldn`t scrounge up the money, I`m living on a financial knife edge and if I have nowhere to live, the snakes have nowhere to live. The vet said he was taking the history into account also when he said what he said. I do see your point and obviously I don`t want IBD so it being something else would be better. I just had to listen to the vet I was able to see at the time, my usual herp vet is on holiday. I just had to listen and follow his recommendations, I had to.... Arguing with him wasn`t really an option lol Thanks very much for your thoughts guys and girls, it means a lot

please believe me when i say i am in no way having a go at you.im trying to give you some light at the end of the tunnel.all based on truths and facts from a vet that is most likely one of the highest qualified vets in the country right now.i cant remember the letters after his name but his jobs are as follows.

my local vet
3 days a week at edinburgh zoo
the on call surgeon for london zoo
special lecturer zoo and wildlife at nottingham universaty

i honestly believe that your vet for all his best intentions has got it wrong.im not even slagging the vet as in his heart of hearts he believes what he's saying.nor am i saying i am more intelligent.im talking from being with a mate every step of the way when dealing with his boas ibd.he didnt drive so i took him to every vet appointment.i gleamed all my information from my vet who talked us through every possibility and the outcome.as ive said on numerous occasions i am so lucky to have this guy on my door step.you have done evrything humanly possible mate.your also still not giving up hell your fumagating your snake room daily.i really do feel for you mate as i had a tiny hint of what it was like returning to my collection thats 100% morelia.thinking what if i carry it to my lot.i had helped my mate and the vet handle the snake.she was strong and all over the place even biting her own body.i couldnt knock my mate back for a lift so i just kept thinking its going to be ok (after numerous showers and a day inbetween,before i went near mines).i always remember the vet saying to my mate,your carpets will let us know before the test results come back (results take a while).so feebs your big girl is still ok and thats been 11 days since you first posted the bloods symptoms.21 days is usually the max a carpet survives,so the signs are good mate.lets hope it turns out to be a wrong diagnosis.
cheers shaun

[Will0W783]

I'm also just trying to give you some comfort and light at the end of the tunnel, that it may still turn out to be something else. I'm so sorry to hear about you financial troubles- I'm almost there too myself right now. My fiance is a car sales manager and the dealership he works at is under new management and the people figured he was making too much to have "incentive to sell more cars" so they cut his pay 40% after it had already been cut %10. He's now making $400/week BEFORE taxes plus commissions, but try to sell a ton of cars in this economy! We're living on the edge right now too, so I can totally sympathize. *hugs* I hope it works out for you.

You're doing all you can right now and fighting every step of the way to protect your other snakes, and that is the best that could be done right now. I do still think, from the quick onset, it's likely to be some sort of chemical toxicosis rather than IBD, but I don't know for sure, I just hope. Either way, you're in my prayers and I'm rooting for you and your snakes!

[shaunyboy]

same here finance wise.the last 2 years have been the worst in a long time.i left school in 1982 just as our prime minister maggie thatcher was privatising all our industrys.imo its worse today than back then.they say the credit crunch is over,but not from where im standing.when my next grandchilds born in 7 months time that will be the fourth pram ive bought in the last 12 months.at £200 a time its breaking me.now our car insurance is due in 10 days.last year i had to sell 4 of my jungles to pay some odf our kids xmas's.so its hitting us all hard mate.its getting tougher and tougher to make ends meet in the now cut throat world we are living in.im rooting for your collection and hope you all get through this bad few weeks.

i really hope your finances sort themselves out mate.

all the best shaun

[dragunov.762]

you are definitely not alone in the financial troubled world my friend i worked for a company that made honda parts and got laid off. i went from working 2 full time jobs plus being in the national guard and making a little over 2000 a month to make 700 a month with going to school full time (and taking care of kids and paying rent and every thing else people have to pay for) thank God my GF still has her job but times are tough. sorry about all your snake troubles on top of all the financial troubles and i understand lack of funds to get the autopsy but your right that it is beeter to be safe than sorry.

[Feebo]

I`m sorry I mentioned the finanial thing now lol Wifey would go potty lol Enough of that I think!
Right, I`ve just spoken to another more qualified snake vet at the same practice. She is basically saying what you guys are saying, no tissue samples, no IBD diagnosis. I wanted to speak to her about how on earth I`m going to be able to declare my collection disease free. I can`t do that at all, but no more than anyone else can. There isn`t a 100% test. There is something that can be done post mortem but it`s very expensive and involves the snake being, well.. dead. If I lose another I`ve put money away for an autopsy so that`s sorted. Basically, if I don`t have any more deaths, and no more symptoms in a whole year, I`m then just as likely to be disease free in my snake room as anyone else. Apparently shops just won`t test for it because if one comes back positive they`re screwed and there`s just nothing they can do. So once a year has passed I`m back to where I was, I don`t know for sure, but neither does anyone else. I`ve got fifteen eggs due to hatch in a month, so I`ll be housing those for a year and THEN selling them. I think a good indicator for IBD aswell is, before I knew what was happening, and contrary to how I usually operate, I touched my big female Carpet python after touching my little Blood python that was put down. No hand washing. The Carpet should be dead by now if that was IBD. THAT, coupled with a years worth of no symptoms and no deaths, is going to have to do, like it has to do for everyone else that is unable to declare, "I don`t have IBD" My snake room has never been so clean On a microscopic level that is.....