Savannah monitor care - Page 3

Will0W783 · 02-05-10, 12:16 PM

Actually rat pups are good for him. Sarge is rather underweight, and rat pups are less fatty than pinkies. He gets a good varied diet of crickets, roaches, and f/t rodents. Right now I'm mostly concerned with getting him up to a proper weight and giving him food loaded with calcium and other vitamins (which the rodents are). I will try to get some pictures of him and his enclosure up tonight when I get home.

infernalis · 02-05-10, 05:54 PM

You tell 'em Kim.

I researched for a year prior to getting Chomper, and listened carefully to Frank Retes (a monitor expert by all means).

Here is an excerpt from the discussions we had.

Quote:

A diet made up of whole prey items (including but not limited to mice and rats) is the way to go with animals the size of monitors. Smaller species such as dwarf monitors are going to require a more insect-based diet, but larger species such as savannahs, blackthroats, etc, do far better on a rodent based diet.

Chomper has been eating mice and rats for years, He is a happy healthy Sav.

He gets lots of Dubia roaches also.

allergenic · 02-06-10, 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

I researched for a year prior to getting Chomper, and listened carefully to Frank Retes (a monitor expert by all means).

The only thing Retes is an expert in is mindlessly railing against the people who are actually out doing field research in how monitors behave, eat, reproduce, and live in the wild. He is unwelcome on any message board containing anything from breeders to published authors, and for good reasons having nothing to do with his bedside manner. The fact that you are choosing his name to drop instead of any others, it simply makes you look foolish rather than credible.

Regarding the rodents, there was a recent thread on a non-Retes message board showing necropsy photos of a Sav with enormous fat deposits from a diet that included a fair amount of animal fat.

These photos should be self-explanatory. To be brief, the OP has what sounds like a sick and slightly emaciated monitor. Treating for parasites is a good first step. But to simply continue with poor housing conditions, improper substrate, improper diet (all of which were mentioned in the first post), and throwing some rodents at it to "fatten it up", the outlook is not positive.

Will0W783 · 02-05-10, 06:23 PM

Lol. Well, he needs to put on weight and he sure looks perkier now that he has had a good meal in his tummy. I don't intend to be giving him only rats, or rats every single day, but he does need them at least once a week, and I wanted him to get the good dose of calcium from their bones. I really appreciate all the advice and help you're giving me, Wayne!

infernalis · 02-05-10, 06:27 PM

You are very welcome Kim.

did you see the additional info I edited into the post while you were reading it??

infernalis · 02-05-10, 06:30 PM

Another important excerpt....

Quote:

Try and fight it, but the more you learn about monitors and rodents, the more the whole prey item thing makes sense. The most successful monitor keepers and breeders in the world feed a rodent-based diet for a reason!

more....

Quote:

These animals aren't in the wild. We are trying to keep them successfully, not necessarily mimic natural conditions (truly natural conditions also include a multitude of parasites and animals that are considerably lighter weight than their captive counterparts). Yes, the wild animals eat a varied diet including birds, other lizards, and large quantities of invertebrates...but that's all they can get and those are all whole prey items that include all of the inner guts and gore.

infernalis · 02-06-10, 01:58 PM

Amazing, I thank you for putting some REAL data out here.

I am certainly re-thinking how I care for my Lizard for sure.

My sweetie is in love with Chomper, and if he died before his time, it would break her heart, And I cannot have that on my conscience.

I am sincerely glad you posted this shocking set of pictures.

Kim I hope you are reading this.... I don't give in very often, but one cannot argue with photographic proof. (well except a stubborn fool, and I would rather be proven wrong than proven an idiot)

emseeKAY · 02-06-10, 02:57 PM

wow those are incredibly large! so is that from eating rodents as a staple food item? husbandry for these guys always seems to leave me a little rattled and seriously considering whether or not getting one in the future is worth it :| i know they take a lot of work, considerably more than many other reptile diets but wow, did not realize that their diets can cause that much trauma!

infernalis · 02-06-10, 03:12 PM

There is way too much he said - she said - I read concerning this animals care, That is hard to deny when someone puts it right up in your face like that.

Thank god we give chomper lean strips of deer meat, roaches and provide lots of exercise for him.

Now I have to apologize to someone.....

emseeKAY · 02-06-10, 03:42 PM

well like you said better to be proven wrong than proven an idiot, and hey, at least you can admit youre wrong, and we all learn someway or another lol better this than a dead or sick animal

infernalis · 02-06-10, 03:58 PM

Back in 2006 when I was in contact with Frank, he was still revered as a monitor god on Kingsnake, albeit one who had zero people skills.

I just checked, and he has not posted anything there in a VERY long time, and his web sites are gone.

So I have to assume his credibility went right down the toilet.

Will0W783 · 02-06-10, 05:18 PM

Wow, that's quite a convincing post! My sav is now in a proper enclosure, which I corrected as per what I read and have learned from people on here. He is in a 5'x3' custom enclosure with plexi lid with just enough screen to fit the basking lamps. His basking area is getting 110-115 degrees and his cool end in the high 80s (87 last I checked a few hours ago). He has a mixture of jungle bed soil and repti-sand substrate which is deep to allow him to burrow. I have given him several hides, a few things to climb on, and a large water bowl. He's been eating crickets, roaches, and rat pups. I will slow down on the rodents and feed more insects. He is being dewormed and is perking up and looking more active. I want to care for him well and have a long and happy relationship with him. He's such a neat little lizard, and I will be the first to admit my experience lies more with snakes. But I'm trying and learning as much as I can.

Will0W783 · 02-06-10, 05:32 PM

Here are some pictures of Sarge and his cage. I lifted the hide off him to take the pictures, so he was a bit less than thrilled..lol.

**Aaron_S** · 02-06-10, 06:02 PM

Kimberly,

I would suggest deeper substrate. From the looks of the first picture, and it isn't a great one, it doesn't look too deep. He may be able to burrow an inch or two but he should be able to dig himself a burrow. I'm talking 6 inch deep substrate at the least.

allergenic · 02-06-10, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by infernalis

Back in 2006 when I was in contact with Frank, he was still revered as a monitor god on Kingsnake, albeit one who had zero people skills.

I just checked, and he has not posted anything there in a VERY long time, and his web sites are gone.

He hosts a forum now at Varanus.net, and deletes any posts that contradict what he says (just as he did on Kingsnake back then).

Quote:

Originally Posted by emseeKAY

wow those are incredibly large! so is that from eating rodents as a staple food item? .... but wow, did not realize that their diets can cause that much trauma!

Unfortunately the poster in the thread these photos were in did not give enough information about his husbandry methods to conclusively say it was solely the diet. I'm sure there were other contributing factors, as there usually are. But yes, diet is a "biggie".

Kim -

I would suggest you read through the link crocdoc gave earlier in this thread (savannahmonitor.org). As well, pick up a book called "The Savannah Monitor Lizard - The truth about Varanus Exanthematicus" by Daniel Bennett. It's for sale here:

Mampam Conservation/Viper Press - The Savannah Monitor Lizard (Powered by CubeCart)

The enclosure the monitor is in could use a lot of work, from the looks of things there is a square area on top cut into the plexi, the lights do not take up the whole space so you have exposed areas of screen. You're going to be losing all your humidity through those areas of screen. For the time being you may want to put some tin foil around the lights covering the screen, to at least create a better seal.

Aaron is correct also that you are going to need much deeper substrate, if you do a foot of soil in that aquarium you will raise the monitor up high enough that you will be able to use a 45 watt indoor flood light from a home improvement store in the fixture, which is recommended. Having the monitor somewhat close to the bulb and using a lower wattage bulb will stop killing the humidity and also prevent spot burns from what looks to be a pet store basking bulb you are using. The basking surface of the soil will then be better measured with an infrared temp gun, rather than trying to rely on the thermometers you have stuck to the glass.

Providing a good depth of soil, keeping the enclosure humid, and covering the exposed screen to keep humidity in, will all help for starters in giving a proper environment.

Also, at savannahmonitor.org/feeding is a bunch of upgraded food and feeding information. It could use a look-through.

What I've mentioned is pretty standard now. To add my personal opinion (which you can agree with or disagree with), glass on four sides makes the monitor feel insecure, if you could cover three sides of it and add a lot more hides or brush, that might help reduce stress also.

Hope that helps, have fun and good luck with the snow.
Bill