venomous snakes - Page 3

rwg · 09-17-04, 01:57 PM

Venomoid operation is not really comparable to dog spaying/neutering.

For one thing the survival rate for spaying/neutering is pretty close to 100%. Maybe someone else can quote the numbers, but the survival rate for venmoids is considerably lower.

Second, one dog being sterilized means we potentially wont have to euthanize dozens of other dogs. Dogs are sterilized because it is the greater good for the animals (or the lesser evil). Reptiles are de-venomed because people lacking the skill to handle them safely insist on keeping them anyway. In other words, the keeper is putting his own whims ahead of the humane treatment of the animals.

Third, although there is no general agreement on how important venom is to digestion, there is some evidence to indicate that it is important. I've seen hots eat before, and even the ones that dont kill their food will often puncture it with their fangs while swallowing. Elapids have little choice in the matter since they have fixed fangs. It doesn't follow that if they dont bite to kill that they dont need venom to digest. I'm saying we dont really know what harm we're doing to the snakes, so why should we be doing it on a wide scale?

As to why some people should be allowed to keep hots, the way I see it, all animals carry a certain level of risk. I've read that approximately 30% of reptiles carry salmonella. There are some who would like to ban reptiles for this reason, but with proper hygiene procedures, the risks can be managed. A full grown coastal carpet python is large enough to constrict and kill a small child, but with the proper handling, housing, and supervision (ie keep them away form small kids), the risks again can be managed. Similarily, although a gaboon viper can bite and kill you, with proper caging, handling experience and safety protocols and procedures, the risks can be managed. Yes, it gets harder, and the committment needed to pull it off is higher, but it can be done safely by the right person.

The people who do it, but say you have to be a bit crazy to do it are stroking their own egos. In my opinion, you have to be very much sane to safely take on these sorts of risks regularily and do what is necessary with focus and professionalism. I have no respect for "daredevil" handlers, but the highest respect for those who take their hot handling safety seriously. The Evil Kenevils of the hot world will hit the landing ramp the wrong way some day, and pay a price for it.

My question is, given that everything has a risk, where should the line be drawn, and by whom?

By the way, I'm against bans, but I'm for requiring licenses for keeping hots. Licenses should require demonstrated knowledge and experience as well as safe housing, and routine inspections.

rg

PS: I make it a habit to disagree with Samba as often as possible.

BWSmith · 09-17-04, 02:00 PM

Quote:

By the way, I'm against bans, but I'm for requiring licenses for keeping hots. Licenses should require demonstrated knowledge and experience as well as safe housing, and routine inspections.

I agree with this.

KsKing · 09-17-04, 02:03 PM

Ok i thought i made it aparently obvious that i was not refering to people that kept them for profesional purposes which is some of the people that took offense to the thread. I figured you guys could possibly be the ones to take it wrong because of your close nature to the topic but i was not aiming my thread in that direction.

Quote:

When did I say it is ok to remove a dogs testes'? This is not even the common way of neutering anymore, so I don't even know why you continue to bring it up? Dogs are neutered 98% of the time for fertility purposes. Most people don't even know of the other reasons to neuter. You must be a real expert on this issue, huh, KsKing?!?!

samba there is no reason to neuter a dog for fertility purposes. neutering is removal of the testies! Thats the only way to do it and it is a very common practice and its scary that people dont understand what it is that there doing when they have it done to the animal. It seems that your about as ignorant to the practice as i was about venomoids before this thread began. Your smart *** remarks are not required in this conversation. Aside from flaming back and forth with you this thread has been pretty informative for me.

Reguarding keeping hots. The statment made that I may be viewed by some as nuts just for keeping any snake comparing my view on keeping hots makes perfect sense to me. I supose it is just how far your willing to go for what you love.

treegirl · 09-17-04, 02:05 PM

WELL said rwg

BWSmith · 09-17-04, 02:05 PM

Some of the best venomous handlers do not do it professionally. But their knowledge has changed venomous herpetoculture.

BWSmith · 09-17-04, 02:10 PM

Also, even many of the "professional" venomous keepers started by keeping privately.

I would like to hear an argument why we should NOT be able to keep venomous.

emilsmee · 09-17-04, 02:10 PM

i just made my fiance get rid of his two andronctonis australis (tunisian fat-tail scorpions) because they are tied with the deathstalkers as the deadliest scorpions in the world. i was fine with it at first, but he slipped when going in the tank one time and we had an all night scare of whether he was stung or not (there is no antivenom for these). i realized then atht he had no protocol if he got stung and when i saw he was not using tongs ever when doing cage maintenance i got pretty angry. even the experts use tongs when going into even an emperor scorpions enclosure. i asked him why he wasn't using the tongs and he said he didn't need them and he wasn't afraid of the scorpion. sorry, but i wasn't about to lose my fiance over him carelessly not using tongs when doing anything with that scorp. i explained it wasn't about whether he was scared ot tough or whatever. it's about proper handling and being mature enough to not have to prove yourself. it just seemed to me he had it and was trying to prove something so i asked him to get rid of them to someone who does practice proper handling.

i think this should be the same for anyone keeping hots.

emilsmee · 09-17-04, 02:16 PM

BWSmith, what is your draw to venomous snakes. what reason do you keep them over any other non-venomous? if they're not 'pets' then why keep them. if you respect them as an animal then why keep them in cages in your house? thats not what they want, thats what you want. if they had the choice, i'm sure they'd leave, so it's not you're doing them any sort of favour by keeping them...
this isn't said with any kind of mean tone, high and mighty-ness, or sarcasm, i'm just curious as to the mentality of those who keep hots.

KsKing · 09-17-04, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Second, one dog being sterilized means we potentially wont have to euthanize dozens of other dogs. Dogs are sterilized because it is the greater good for the animals (or the lesser evil).

You guys are failing to differentiate between spaying/ neutering with sterilization. Sterilization has no effects on an amimals mentality or natural being. Spaying and neutering does. Its like someone else said. removing the snakes venom glands will leave it non leathal. Removing its fangs is unnecessary and only selfish to reduce the injury if bitten. I am all for the population controll of dogs and cats but fail to see why there testicals and overies need to be removed for the owners convience. Im not comparing the animals with snakes im comparing the practices of these procedures. My point is why does nobody seem to think that an animals reproductive organ removal is a big deal at all but your all up in arms about venom glands. They both are unnecessary and selfish. I dont know maby everyone sees dogs and cats as python food

BWSmith · 09-17-04, 02:22 PM

Please stop saying "removing fangs". That is not a venomoid. Fangs removed is an injury that WILL heal.

Try rescuing dogs and cats, then tell me that they do not need to be fixed. It is a simple matter of population control.

At least THAT is done by a vet. Venomoid surgury generally is not. Even looking at it from that standpoint, you are comparing a veterinary procedure to a garage hack job done by an unlisenced individual.

KsKing · 09-17-04, 02:24 PM

didnt even read my post did you? Totally missed the point! Im steralized and i have my nuts! However im not arguing that venomoids are right for every situation the gentleman in an earlier post had a legitimate reason. However any garage hack job to a snake is inhumain.

BWSmith · 09-17-04, 02:27 PM

I simply cannot follow your logic. I am sure it sounds logical in your head.

Why does every venomous thread revert to a venomoid debate?

critical bill · 09-17-04, 02:27 PM

Perhaps I should have been more clear.

I do shows at "educational facilities" like as in schools. And I have done this for the last 18 years all over the US.

My logic is that, like with any animal, escapes are inevitable. And this is not to say the keeper is at fault or irresponsible. **** happens, I just wouldnt want it happening in an auditorium packed with people.

I have been around long enough to know what can go wrong will go wrong and at times when you least expect it to. Thats murphys law.

Please do not tell me that you have done venomous shows at educational facilities with hot snakes. It would be kinder of you to piss on my pants and tell me its just warm rain.

And if you say you do and constantly, then perhaps you wouldnt mind listing the most recent educational facility that allowed you to bring them in. I would like to verify it with the facility if I may.

Please reply....

Quote:

Originally posted by BWSmith
I perform Venomous Educational programs constantly. I see no need to use venomoids. I am curious as to your logic as i have heard that excuse used before and have yet to hear a satisfactory answer.

emilsmee · 09-17-04, 02:28 PM

hehe when my friend had his dog brought in for 'sterilization' he asked that they leave his testicles. what was his reasoning?
"i know i wouldn't wanna wake up, go to lick myself and find out i've lost my nuts. he loves licking those things... he'd never let me bring him to the vet again if he woke up there without them."
hehe, the vet gave him such a funny look, but said it was no problem. lol.

KsKing · 09-17-04, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Why does every venomous thread revert to a venomoid debate?

actually i whought it could all be discussed but considered leaving it out becasue ive read other threads like this lol. This wasnt really the direction i wanted this to go in. I was looking for reasons that i might not know for keeping venomous and i have had my eyes opened to some extent in that area.