Jason, Fyi

[psilocybe]

Originally posted by cobraman
This has never been about the snakes themselves. The snakes can't help it if some hacker chops them up. This is all about us being against the unqualified hackers, not the snakes.

Ray,

I wasn't referring to the venomoid petition, or anything like that, I support the petition fully, and yes, I know it's about the hacker scum. It's just you sometimes here people saying things like "I hate venomoids", or referring to the snakes as "venomoid trash"...it's the hackers that are the trash.

[herpetological]

In regards to the arguement.....No Scott has no voids...Yes, the petition has errors gramatically and otherwise....There was a purpose that seems to be missed.....GETTING THE MESSAGE OUT AND EDUCATING PEOPLE WHO WERE NOT AWARE OF THE PROBLEM. This is a petition which was formed in order to help both those for and against venomoids. It was meant to save lives...the very lives we as dedicated enthusits on both side of the "keeper" issue profess to care for. Why take away from that very purpose for petty personal issues...I saw you criticize Scott's version however, I did not see you do the proper thing and offer to help Scott edit the document. Hmmmm?????Think about that issue. If you were sincere about not taking serious jabs at Scott how about making it known that they were just that?? Easy step...put "LOL's just kidding..." Scott isn't perfect...none of us are. By the way....I have yet to see any single legal document that was not edited a dozen times before it was complete. Interestingly enough is that many times the document, it's wording and the very thing it was meant to address often are far different in the end. What we need to worry about is keeping it from straying too far away from the origional objective and goals. (Yes I can see spelling errors and sentence structure errors above...it's to late and i'm too tired...Besides you can get the message....Hmmm....No offense Jason, you may just have came across wrong. Again, next time it might be better to offer help rather than digging at someone.

[MsTT]

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with handling a poor abused venomoid snake, as long as:

1. You did not have ANYTHING to do with abusing the animal, including giving any financial support to the abusers.
2. You fully understand the risk of being envenomated by a "venomoid" that has any small scrap of gland tissue left.

Venomoids deserve good compassionate care like any other abused snake. If one came to my doorstep as a rescue, it would be treated like any other scarred animal that had been abused and given good care. I feel sorry for them and I want them to have good responsible homes, though that home will probably not be with me in the long term.

In some circumstances I might even buy or sell a venomoid, with the caveat that it would absolutely have to be a rescue animal. I won't give any money to support venomoid hackers or dealers who profit from selling venomoids, or any snake owner who chose to make the animal a venomoid. That only rewards animal abuse, and that's a bad idea. But sometimes people end up with venomoids more or less by accident, when they would not have chosen for the snake to be venomoid if they had a choice in the matter.

I was briefly involved in one venomoid transaction where the original owner had died and his snakes wound up being adopted out to various keepers. Two were venomoid. We had no way of knowing whether he bought them as venomoids on purpose, or who made them, or why. Nobody even knew that this guy had owned any venomoids prior to his death, and it was a little late to ask him any questions. I was offered one of the venomoids and I passed the offer instead to a responsible keeper who was breeding that species. I have no personal use for a void and the other keeper did have a use for a female of that species.

Making that snake a void originally was an unethical thing to do, but at the point it was offered to me, there was nobody profiting from animal abuse. There was just an abused animal needing a home....preferably NOT with some yahoo who would take it to the shopping mall around his neck. No money changed hands, but I don't think it would have been particularly wrong of me to have accepted the animal and then sold it to a responsible keeper. Nor would it have been wrong for anyone to buy the animal at that point. The only person who might possibly have been involved in the original decision to cripple the animal was not going to profit by it.

As another example, if I rescued a botched venomoid that needed vet care to survive, it would get that care and then it would be sold for cost of vet bills - that's been my standard operating policy and it wouldn't be changed just because a snake was hurt in a particular way. If the vet had to open up that area anyway we'd probably have a try at restoring normal functionality as part of the healing process, but we would not put the animal through additional pain to reverse the venomoid operation.

A venomoid snake is just another abused animal that should be treated kindly. There is nothing wrong with having one or handling one. There is plenty wrong with buying one under most circumstances, and of course with making one. But if you wind up with a venomoid that you really didn't choose to make that way on purpose, that's not your fault and nobody should blame you.