My small rant

[ReptiZone]

This is how I see it.

PPl should specialise in 2-5 species of animals and take the best of there liters and hold them back for future breeding.
Sounds easy enugh right WRONG

now I love ETB I know they are a bit up there in prices but thows are what I love.

Now it is better for me to get 1 trios depending on the quality of animal I want. Then breed them and hold back the ones that seem more promasing for future products then do what I would call a secound pic witch is what would go on the net but ppl need to realise that the net works like a charm but to cut your losses you need to hole sale or put in pet stores the animals you personaly feal could take a while to sell.

Now you could re-breed the same adults the falowing season but why it will give you babys that will just over populate the hobby of that perticulare species.

Now lets say you dont want to hole sale or sell to pet stores god knows I dont blame you. You can do trades witch I find is benificial for the hobby cause you did not just get cash but you got your animals value if you are doing a good trade. Your animal head count has remaind the same and not only that in 2-3 years you have something new to bring to the table under your name.

For Example I will use Chris Marshell *I hope he dosent mind*

lets say I baught a trio of Adult emeralds and breed them kept some sweet looking ones for my self put a few on the net for sale and have 2 trios left and I could sell them to pet stores or hole sale them.

BUT Chris dosen't have ETB but man he has some sweet looking Dumerils I would like to have.Now I have some ETB that I want to off load . Well instead of selling them for cheap to the avarege Joe. I say to Chris Man I have 2 trios siting here doing nothing and I would like a trio of Dumerils and we will say he accepts the offer well now you emptyed 6 cages and then refiled 3 because you got 3 Dumerils {dont forget you have a few still for sale on the net that could go in a few monts} when you get the cash you refil the last 3 cages with somthig totaly new and it could be a adult Trio of Jungle carpet pythons so you breed thows the falowing year And not your ETB it is a new product NOW the PPl that baught from you last year say Hey he was a good person to deal with last year and now he has something new whats this he is selling for 100 Bucks more that is fine at least I know he wont mess arond with me and will get straight to the point. Now you can repeat the same thing over and over in stead of ETB this year you are keeping the best trio of Jungles then doing your secound pic for the net and then you can do some trades and off load a bunch of babys for a trio of baby white Lip Pythons. and you buy a adult pair of grenn tree pythons so now you are breeding Green tree pythons same thing hold back the best trio do your secound pic and trade the rest or as I said B4 whole sale or sell to pet stores.

Just to recap what your collection now consists of
2.3 ETB
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
1.2 Dumerils Boas (juviniles)
2.3 JCP
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
1.2 White Lip Python (juviniles)
2.3 GTP
(1.1 being Adult prouven breeders 1.2 being juviniles hold backs)
That gives you 5 difrent species to work with

As we look on time has pased from when you held back your ETB and got your baby Dumerils on trade and your hold back JCP are ready to rock also Now all you are growing is your new White lip python babys and your GTP hold backs

Right there you have 2-3 years worth of work done if you do it the way I just stated and all the ppl that baught you secound pic on the net know who you are and if you have half a brain you treated them good so that the good news travles. You are still a small time person in this buisnes but you were also only doing o species a year there for not over loding the herp world with the same babys EVERY year.

so now you havent breed ETB in about 2 years so you put your hold backs together and if you choose you can put the adults back together that way you can have a price range *for the sake of argument * just your ETB's range from $500 to $1200 ($1200 being the secound pic of the hold back litters cause you are still gona hold a few back for the future)
but now you also have Dumerlis boas to offer and some better Jungles Carpet Pythons to offer Again you can re-breed the adult JCP's or just the hold backs your choice nd if you are a sucsesfull sales person you will not half to off load the remaning off spring cause ppl will start to know you buy now.

that to me is a proper way of doing things cause you are working to provide a quality animal not just average.

what bugs me is a person that buy 4 trios of regular Ball pythons from a pet store because they were on special and sais I am gona be a breeder and make a killing but what realy hapends is they have crapy off spring and repeat the same average joe blood line year after year after year till every one and there uncle is a Ball python breeder the same with leo geckos, corn snakes and I am actualy starting to see it hapen with Crested Geckos

If you want to be a breeder don't plan on jumping in and slaming the market you will go no where grab a couple of species work with them to refine you own blood line.

In my explanation above I was alwas trading for new species but one year you can get a new species and the next trade for new blood lines for the 2 species you have and just work and the falowing year get a new species and the 4th year get new blood for the 3 species you have then bang 10 years later not only do you have 5 species of animals but you worked on having a killer blood line.

you know if you held back 2 trios of ETB's but you want a better blood line trade your 2 males of for new ones from another breeder so you can new blood in your collection.

Another thing is If you want to be a breeder and you want respect. From day one give credit where it is due and pay the price asked for don't try and save a buck every where you turn.

if you pay the extra $200-$500 for the quality of the animal you will not regret it cause if you have good quality animals you willnot realy be buged to lower your price all the time and lets be real here if you payed $1000 for a pair of adult snakes and sell the babys $300each with good reliable service and you do all the right thigs you will still make you money back and more and you will ahev put your name out there for the future when you do get expesive animals ppl will not hesitate to buy from you at $300each you only need to sell 4 to get your money back and start your name in the buisnes your service will speak for it's self.

One last thing I feal there should be a restraint on how many vendors are aloude to sell regular leo geckos and regular ball pythons and corn snakes and so on. Yes we need thows boths around for ppl that are just geting started hobby and want a good price and a good beguiner Herp. The vendors that are just selling Beguiner Herps or have beguiner Herps at ther both should be forced to have all animals for sale Vet checked with a paper proving so for every indavidual animal and also have detailed Care sheets with a FAQ attatched at the back for the species so if you have 20 Ball pythons you MUST have 20 vet slips and 20 Care sheet just doing that extra effort Will Make you look That much Better. So yes insted of 200 vendors the wil be 150 but there can still be tables where there is just info and animals on display. But from wat I heard alot of reptile Expos have Leos and Ball pythons every corner you turn. Bring your better looking morphs or Blood lines to shows for sale and bring like one of each Beguiner herp as disply to say you do have some for sale but refuse to bring them due to too much impuls buying at Herp shows

I hope I gave some help full Ideas to Newbies that wana start breeding there herps there is nothing wrong with breeding ball pythons or leos just STOP thinking they will make you ritch cause they wont Unless you are working with $30 000 morphs from the start and still No Name No way in h3!! you will sell a $30 000

I must Thank a Verry reputable Breeder And Who I Consider a Good freind for leting me in on thows littel tricks and secrets and for the great wake up call that I resived just a few days a go and that is why the post is so long cause it is still fresh in my head.
You Know who you are If you choose to take credit that is due to you feal free to reply.

The ReptiZone
Marc Doiron
&
Lucie Masson

[MouseKilla]

What is all this talk about "the good of the hobby"? Listen, do you hear that? Is that the flower children I hear? Yes, they want to trade some beads and a roach clip for a pair of your snakes. Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool.

[BoidKeeper]

There's no money in corn snakes in this country and I'm working with hypo, ghost, motley, lavender, starting an opal project. I do it to see what I'm going to get in the next clutch, not for the money cause there is none.
I'm no fool,
Trevor

[MouseKilla]

Breeding animals for your own curiosity and enjoyment is one thing, trying to sell them and then crying about the competition's lower price or a buyer's desire to get the best deal is another.

All I'm saying is if you're going to participate in the market you should be aware of it's nature. The nature and function of the reptile, or any other market is not to promote the hobby or your enjoyment. Markets exist to generate money and while it's true that the vast majority of breeders won't make a cent the whole thing, the trade itself, would not exist if no one made money.

It's funny to think about all the people breeding reptiles that don't make any money who think they are helping the hobby or the industry. The people responsible for creating the industry, making it possible for the rest of us to do it for fun, realize that this industry is like any other, someone has to make money or the whole thing collapses. There's nothing wrong with breeding animals and not expecting to profit from it, I do it myself, but understand that when you go into the market to sell your animals that not everyone else looks at it the same way. The other sellers are trying to out sell you and the buyers are trying to get the best deal. Even if you aren't trying to make a million bucks doing this you still want the most money you can get for your stock right?

[Darren179]

I breed so I have more money to expand my collection. Thats about it.

[Gary D.]

well I guess I'm going to have to go out and buy some grapenuts and birkenstocks now. Maybe I can trade a boa for a groovy lavalamp and some weed.

Even if you aren't trying to make a million bucks doing this you still want the most money you can get for your stock right?

Oh and you're pretty much dead on with that last post mousekilla.

[Jeff Hathaway]

Mousekilla,

I agree with everything you have said, except "Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool." Lots of people breed and sell animals for fun, which is why they're happy giving them away if they can't sell. Me, I don't even intentionally breed much (if anything), but I'm quite happy producing lots of corns, normal or otherwise, because if every kid had a pet corn snake, a lot fewer people would kill wild snakes. Every corn snake out there contributes to the education of the general public.

For this reason, I don't think that producing 'blah' quality normal corns hurts the hobby. These will go to people who just want a simple pet snake, and don't care if it is a lavender which is het for invisible. In the worst case, cheap corns and leopard geckos will replace wild caught anoles, ribbon snakes, and rough greens as the pet industry's throw away pets of choice, which is fine by me- fewer animals taken from the wild, and the unknowledgeable consumer gets a better animal that the have a better chance of being successful with. Odds are, some of these new owners will get the bug, and become new people in 'the hobby.'

Having said this, we sell our corns privately for $50, and we do get it, but we're not trying to sell them into the 'hobby'. Anyone in the hobby knows they can get them cheaper at the expos.

Marc, I can see why you would like to limit the exposure of common species at shows. This will happen on its own anyway due to the market forces Mousekilla describes. If many people keep showing up with leopard geckos and not selling them, some of them will eventually stop doing it. If fewer are there, the prices will eventually rise a bit. However, I can't believe you said this- "The vendors that are just selling Beguiner Herps or have beguiner Herps at ther both should be forced to have all animals for sale Vet checked with a paper proving so for every indavidual animal and also have detailed Care sheets with a FAQ attatched at the back for the species so if you have 20 Ball pythons you MUST have 20 vet slips and 20 Care sheet just doing that extra effort Will Make you look That much Better."

Can you imagine what that would do to the cost of a corn snake, or a ball python, or most other species? Individual vet checks? Get real! Assuming that we're talking about captive bred specimens, this would be a complete waste of money! A captive bred corn snake, assuming it is feeding which a vet cannot determine, and has no overt deformities, should do just fine and does not require being seen by a vet. Assuming proper husbandry, it will likely NEVER need to be seen by a vet! I'll agree with the caresheets, though- always a good idea, but I think having them on a website is better, as it uses less paper that people will just lose. And, I think it is just as important to have care sheets for the more expensive (generally harder to keep) animals as the cheaper (generally easy to keep) animals!

Jeff Hathaway
Sciensational Sssnakes!!

[Zoe]

Come on, no one breeds and sells animals for the sake of anything but they're own pocket and if they tell you different they're either a liar or a fool.

That's very far from being true. I have a small collection, and when I have an adult pair I will try and breed them for fun and experience. I know I'm not going to get rich and I'm not trying to. Take my IJs, I'm breeding them again this year (well, trying), because I want to see little heads poking out of eggs, not because I want to make 10,000$. If anything, it's the opposite! How many people on this site can say 'Yeah, I breed herps because I'm going to get rich'... no way, they'll say 'im breeding herps because they are my hobby, and if I make money ,great, if not, oh well" and they arent all fools or liars.




Personally, I'm concerned about the market itself. It's getting quite hard to sell anything; beardies and leos and corns go for a dime a dozen. I have two male dragons and I'm not going to get a female because I don't want them to breed and be stuck with all the babies they produce.
Sure, there are some higher end animals that can be sold at a decent price, quickly enough, but what's going to happen in a couple years? Albinos and rare species will be bred more often because knowledge will increase and more animals will be produced. Unless you export, I can't see how anything will be worth much in the futureé

Zoe

[marisa]

Good points Mousekilla but I also do not agree with the statement that everyone breeds for money. I also have a small collection and breeding for money at this point would be laughable and foolish. LOL. I wonder if I breed enough corns if I could pay my electricity bill for a month. LOL. Doubt it. Even later on I won't be doing it for money as I have put more money into my current collection that I would probably ever make in babies.

I breed snakes because I love snakes and think high qaulity captive snakes as pets and for breeders have a real place in this world and captive breeding has taught us more about snakes than any other interaction with them. I also just personally love snakes and the thought of seeing my own babies being produced here was just a huge attraction for me.

Marisa

[marisa]

I have two male dragons and I'm not going to get a female because I don't want them to breed and be stuck with all the babies they produce.

Good point Zoe!

This is what I was talking about earlier. You have lots of new people coming into the hobby and breeding anything they own. "Oh I have two ho hum corns, but they are male and female so of course I am breeding them" That just makes no sense to me. Why people are churning out more and more and more makes no sense to me. Everyone seems to have this giant pressure on them to breed anything they own thats breedable, and if its not, then buy a mate and breed them as soon as possible. But hey it's a free country.

A good example is the snakes we bought this year. My BF and I wanted some het albino ball pythons. We had the cash for a pair or trio of 100% hets but after a few months of careful thinking he decided that I could get the hets, but he wanted a GTP. We ended up purchasing only a male het, and his GTP. Will this help me out breeding? Not this year. It sets me back a year for ball pythons. But he LOVES GTPS. That's what he wants to work with. It won't make money ever, and we wont even get a mate for years until we find one, and sure I'll eventually get a female het this year or next but I am waiting to match up my male perfectly with a 100% or some super nice normals. instead of just breeding anything that has a hole. lol.

Marisa

[Youkai]

To the original post...

Recently, I sold some leopard geckos to someone for far less than I paid for them. Many of you probably saw my adds.

I found the market to be much, much stronger in Alberta then it is here in BC. I've learned quickly that leos, as much as I love them, are going to be a headache to breed and sell here. As such, I've sold all but my favorites.

Was I mad that I had such a hard time selling those leos? Yes, I was. But I don't blame anyone. I was well known to both pet stores and local people in Edmonton, and selling was a breeze.

Basically, the way the market is here...if you're selling leos, corns, beardies, etc. I wouldn't complain about the prices. It's already been said that they're a hard sale.

I considered it a case of Live and Learn. :/

[anders_240sx]

Heres a little question... what if I spent the money to buy a pair of womas, piebalds, and black heads ..etc ... and sold babies at 25% the regular price .... I am sure if u saw womas at $500 a piece u would want them ...or even selling piebalds at $500 each ... yeah they cost a lot in the beginning ..but you have the species u always wanted ..and after a couple years of breeding ur equal .. at least in terms of the price of the animal .... Its not a bad idea when u think about it ... cause really who would match $500 for womas, or piebald bps or axthanics ..etc

[Tim_Cranwill]

But isn't that the EXACT thing that frustrated you in your first post?

[Youkai]

But why would you? People usually get into investment animals because of the money they get in return, as well as a host of other reasons. And why would you sell for so low when you could sell for much higher?

I'm not sure I understand what you're talking about.

I'm sure if you had baby snakes in your hand worth 2k or more (espcially with some of the animals you're talking about here) a peice, you wouldn't sell them at $500.

[Youkai]

But isn't that the EXACT thing that frustrated you in your first post?

I also noticed that....