The Big Question: Sand vs Everything Else

[Sean Day]

Originally posted by Bighead
Let me ask you again- what proof do you have that it doesn't cause impaction? Any?

Ple3ase show me where I said it doesn't cause impaction

Originally posted by Bighead
P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.

Please show me where I said this.

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by Bighead

P.S. If you think eyespy is the only one who has owned or seen a herp die from impaction first hand, you are sorely mistaken. I hope you're not the next one to experience it.

Big head i just really like quoting you. LOL


ME, ME, ME, (lol) I've had first hand experince. No where near as much as eyespy, but i've had my own. I learned from my leos that sand is bad. My leos have been impacted with sand, calci-sand, and lizard litter. Now i know leos and beardies aren't the same, but i'm going to do a little comparison.

As a side note luckly I haven't had any of my leos die from impaction, because i noticed the signs and got them off the substrate asap. Well the lizard litter almost got them, they were pooping that stuff out for 2 weeks.

Ok chitlen (mealworms) can easily break down in leos, but beardies have a hard time breaking chitlen down and beardies run a higher risk of impaction. How do i know this cause my boyfriend had 2 beardies die of impaction from mealworms. Ok this is where common sence comes in. If a leo can get impacted by all those things doesn't it seem like beardies would to. I'm sorry but all the information i have ever gathered from the use of sand points me in the direction of not using it. Since these beardies are in my care i'm not going to let them have that chance to get impacted.

My beardies are my babies i would be absoultly heart broken if i ever lost one for something i could have prevented, and i would never forgive myself. So i take that extra step to try and prevent it, just like an overprotective mother.

Jamie

[Bighead]

Sean Day- You were implying, in your first posts, that sand is an acceptable substrate to use:

Originally posted by Sean Day
I do believe (from my own experience) that a healthy herp will pass small amounts from tongue flicking.

You were also saying that a beardie won't thrive without a place to dig:

Originally posted by Sean Day
So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?

You were also implying that few people have first hand experience but eyespy:

Originally posted by Sean Day
Just because you can have a wackload of people quoting eyespy doesn't necessarily mean it is good advice.

I may have misunderstood what you meant by these quotes, but it doesn't sound to me like you disagree with the idea of using sand, which is what this post is about.

[Bighead]

Thanks Jamie

[Sean Day]

Big Head this is getting silly, all you are doing is putting words into my mouth that were never there to begin with. Write what you want but I am done with this thread.

[drewlowe]

Ok we've went over the bad aspects of sand. I want to hear from people that has good things to say about it and why. That way people can see the pros and cons of using sand and decied for themselves on wether they should use it.

[Bighead]

The most positive thing about sand that I've seen is that they really do like to dig around in it. It's fun to watch them toss it around too.

[Dragon_Slave]

They can dig around and play in ''Yesterdays News'', too. They love it!

[Senator Gracken]

Instead of starting a new thread in the boa forum would bran work well with ATBs?

[Big Mike]

I don't know...you might as well ask this in the boa forum.

Don't' ATBs require a higher humidity? Bran & humidity do not mix well. I'd suggest a substrate that will tolerate a higher humidity.

[tHeGiNo]

Wow! I just came back to see this thread has gone where I wanted it to, it was dead at first! I love debates.

Ok now, Sean. For the record, I am not new to keeping reptiles, especially bearded dragons (they were actually my first lizard). I just wanted to bring the subject to the public. Also to get some feedback from people who have been in the hobby longer then myself.

Now, my reasoning for quoting Eyespy is because I myself have not had a beardie die from impaction. Nor am I a vet (yet) to list several cases in which I have determined the cause of death to be impaction. In eyespys case, being a veterinarian (I believe), she knows first hand the effects of impaction. I am not one to make myself look like I know what I am talking about when I don't. Thats why I made a reference to Eyespy.

On the other hand, do not get me wrong. I am a firm believer that a healthy bearded dragon can pass certain amounts of sand. However, a healthy beardie still has wet insides, and sand sticks to wet places. This, through common sense, would lead me to believe that over time, sand can and will build up internally.

So they change substrate and everything is fixed? The reptile may live but is it really thriving?

I don't think he meant they can thrive without a place to burrow. Rather, I think he is implying that a healthy beardie should be able to pass small amounts of sand. If he is not passing this, then there are other husbandry errors too. At least thats what I think he meant.

i do not believe that beardies live in nice and proper environment..there are lots of little small particle out there they may ingest..i agree with you guys saying the sand could be bad but st the same time i am not having any problems at all having my lizards and geckos having sand as their substrate...I agree with all of you guys though

These kind of comments really make me feel bad for reptiles in captive husbandry. Attitudes like that really bother me. Just because something has not happened to your lizard yet, it does not mean it is not possible, nor likely. I don't understand why people have this attitude. Really, you readily admit you understand the effects of using sand yet you continue to use it? I honestly feel people with your attitude should not be permitted to house reptiles. In ANY situation, the needs and care of the reptile comes FIRST! It is a PRIVILAGE to keep such wonderful creatues, and just because there are risks in wild husbandry that does not mean we should not do everything and anything possible to make sure our herps are perfectly healthy and safe.

*sigh* Sorry for making that into a rant.

If there is some proof that sand has caused impaction, whether it's one out of five beardies or one out of 500, there is no reason to take that risk.

EXACTLY! Even if there is one in every thousand beardies, why take a risk if you do not have to and there are other alternatives!

Ok we've went over the bad aspects of sand. I want to hear from people that has good things to say about it and why. That way people can see the pros and cons of using sand and decied for themselves on wether they should use it.

Fair enough. The only good think I can think of about sand, besides the fact that some people think it looks better, is that the beardies can burrow in it. Aside from that, I cannot see why anyone likes it, lol. Personally, I hate the stuff! I am one who is obsessed with everything being perfectly clean, and its impossible with sand! There is always garbage all over the place, and it stinks when its wet!

[tHeGiNo]

Oh and as Mike suggested, you might not want to use bran with ATB's. As he said, it does not mix well with humidity, and they require fairly high humidity levels.

[Jawz]

would bare bottom be bad?

[drewlowe]

Originally posted by tHeGiNo
EXACTLY! Even if there is one in every thousand beardies, why take a risk if you do not have to and there are other alternatives!

I agree 100%!!!!!!

Fair enough. The only good think I can think of about sand, besides the fact that some people think it looks better, is that the beardies can burrow in it. Aside from that, I cannot see why anyone likes it, lol. Personally, I hate the stuff! I am one who is obsessed with everything being perfectly clean, and its impossible with sand! There is always garbage all over the place, and it stinks when its wet!

The reason i asked that was so it wouldn't be a one sided debate. Most long term keepers are aware of the risks and some are not. This way a new keeper can come to these threads and see for themselfs the good points and bad points of a subject, and decide for themselfs.

I aparently from my post dislike sand and in no way am i for it. Just because it looks nice and they like to burrow in it no way compares to the immedite and long term effects that it "could" cause. Exspecially when there are alternatives.

Jamie

Oh and Eyespy is a vet tech or was one at a time, and now she rehabs at home. (i belive that is what she has said in the post that she has wrote)

[gregandsarah]

Ok I've posted this topic on other beardie columns and the general consensus is that unless your dealling with a juvenille. Washed and filtered play sand is just fine. I've read a lot also and 9 times out of 10 this is what others say. I've since put my newly aquired 4 year old in sand.

Has anyone actually heard of an adult suffering compaction from sand. Almost everyone states that it's fine.