questionable info on my Rainbow Boa

[Jeff_Favelle]

(And I'm looking for scientific answers here, people, not just the usual "in my experience" crap.)

Wrong way to go about keeping reptile my man. Science has done jack sh*t for reptile-keeping. Reptile keeping and breeding has evolved and advanced ONLY because of record keeping, observations, and trial and error. NOTHING ELSE. Don't kid yourself. Science is for theory and for hypothesizing. Observation and ACTUALLY DOING SOMETHING is what drives reptile husbandry to progress. Do tell, what do all your "science" books say about breeding Boelen's Pythons? I'm dying to know.

Read these two quotes by one of the best in the biz. I hope he doesn't get mad for me posting them here:

Posted by FR on Wed - Jul 23 - 10:46am:

In Reply to: I wonder? posted by Andrew Owen on Tue - Jul 22 - 11:48pm:

Wow, that was a bit revealling for both of us. First you, it seems you thought you actually learn for reading(research?????) I thought you learned from doing(my revealling part). I thought reading was to make you aware of something, not actually to know something. I also thought, research included the actual events of doing as well as reading and other comunications. But then what do I know?
I sometimes get the feeling that a reptile that constantly eats food backwards is one or two blocks shy of a load. But then, I believe most living things are not perfect. It also could be simply because the food item was not big enough to make a difference. Give that individual larger prey and see what happens. Monitors are good at only doing whats necessary.

Yea, monitors are a case of the more you see the less you know. They don't do the same research we do, they just go by their book. Frank

You see, animals are living things that are dynamic and ever-changing. Whether or not a light bulb dries out a cage at the exact same rate that a heat pad does is irrelevant. Heck, its not even important, at least not to me. I only care about breeding reptiles and selling the babies. That's it. So I do what has been proven to work and I avoid the things that have been PROVEN to NOT work. How hard can that be?

And a light bulb will dry out a cage faster because it heats the air (ambient). An UTH just heats the ground in a particular spot within a cage. A light bulb heats up the WHOLE cage (yikes).

And GTP's and Bloods are NOT Rainbows. Both those snakes like it hotter and GTP's like it warmer. GTP's are just green Carpet pythons. Nothing more. They aren't delicate like everyone thinks they are.

How's that for science?

[Stockwell]

OH yes, nothing like a "Frank" quote Jeff!(;o)
There seems to be a bit of an attitude developing on this thread, so I'll play my usual role of
devils advocate here.
Different people keep and have success with animals different ways.
I have produced hundreds of Brazilians myself in the 80's and 90's back when very few were in Canada.
I kept mine on WET peat moss.. Jeff and many other good breeders have success with damp newspaper.
I kept my snakes in near darkness. Jeff has some lighting as a heat source only..but advocates darkness as well

The important technical scientific things here are that Brazilians need humid if not wet environments, with cooler temps than many boids. They dessicate quickly, and I've killed a few myself by accidentally allowing them to dry out.
Dehydration and death is also why Brazilians maintained a price of $225 US for 20 years...
It's only recently that people are keeping them alive, and don't need replacements the year after.

I have had lights on Brazilians,years back,
as I recall I tossed some in my old Ball Python breeding cages, and those cages had COMPACT FLUORESCENTS!!! some of the first ones on the market in fact. Compact fluoresents produce tons of light while consumming much less power then incandescent bulbs.
These cages however also had subterranial retreats which where jumbo kitty litter pans full of wet peat moss, and these were under the cages, accessible through a hole in the cage floor(The applegate technique)The snakes would usually go there if the lights were on
The whole key to Brazilians is keeping them cool and keeping them wet...Light bulbs tend to work against both these key husbandry requirements

In general herpers hear "light bulbs" and stick in 60 or 100 watters not realizing the how many degress above ambient that will raise a cage with restricted air flow, which is required to keep the moisture up.
Jeff's advice to NOT use light bulbs is Damn good advice, because more times than not, the snake will end up over heated, dried out and toast!

If you absolutely want light go with low wattage compact Fluorescents or a small normal Fluorescent but you have to wire the ballast outside the cage.
I have done this, but I work with electricity every day. Fluorescent ballasts create more heat then the bulb... Leave the ballast outside..
put a switch on the bulbs and I recommend turning them on for viewing only unless you're absolutely sure they wont heat the cage above 85F on a hot summer day.
Jeff and I are just trying to help...Repeat business is always welcome! (;o)

[Jeff_Favelle]

Exactly what Roy said. Isn't that the way it usually is though?? LOL!!

Excellent post. That should be an FAQ for Rainbows posted permanently here somewhere!!

[Invictus]

I was not for one minute disputing the husbandry of rainbow boas. I know as well as anyone else what they require. What I was disputing was the science of heat and evaporation, not the science of reptile care.

Secondly, my post was one part genuine curiosity (seeing if anyone could actually explain this miraculous loss of humidity scientifically), one part attempting to dispel was I felt was a myth, and one part being devil's advocate for the purposes of sparking some interesting conversation.

All too often on this forum, I have seen GROSS exaggerations. Like how this and that is a "death trap" or how you will end up with a "dead snake" just because your husbandry is less than ideal. I've seen too much of that around here, and I was in part trying to see if anyone had some science to back up their opinions. Evidently no one does.

Jeff, your comment about how a light bulb heats ambiently as opposed to a focused area is at least MORE scientific than many of the reposnses you get to some scientific questions 'round here. I personally hypothesize that a focused heat source will drain the humidity MUCH faster than an ambient one, ie, an undertank heater will cause MORE evaporation than a light bulb, since it is directly heating the moistened source. I haven't proven this yet, so it is merely a hypothesis based on what I know of simple science. I very well could be wrong.

Roy, as for your comment about 60 or 100 watt bulbs. That's crazy. Of course that will overheat a snake. I've never recommended anything more than a 40 if the bulb is inside the viv, 60 if it is elevated outside the viv. So you're right, in a case like that, you're formulating a disaster.

On the other hand, I'd be VERY skeptical about even a 100 watt bulb being able to drain the humidity from a viv with restricted air flow IF the substrate was misted once a day.

So my point here is this: Using a light bulb will not kill a BRB. Using a light bulb and not moistening the substrate enough will kill a BRB. Not keeping the humidity up will kill a BRB. Frying a BRB will kill a BRB. Using a light bulb in a viv, if used at the right wattage and humidity levels monitored, will NOT kill a BRB. See my point guys?

[marisa]

Buy why even attempt to use something that A. takes a perfect wattage to make sure its not too hot, B. Takes even MORE misting, and C. causes you to have to restrict airflow to the point that none is going in just to keep humiditiy?

I just don't understand why you would want to use it when heating pads are proven to work better with many species. If you think a heating pad evaps more water than a bulb, then go ahead and try it. I can tell you I switch 8 snakes from bulbs to heating pads and tape and haven't had a humidity issue since. For most it didn't matter but I cannot even imagine my BP using a light. The humidity would be fluctuating all over the place and only be high enough (during shed time) when I mist.

I am no boa expert AT ALL. But IMHO its just too plain simple to see why heating pads should almost always be used over bulbs.



Marisa

[Invictus]

I'm also not disputing that a heating pad might be better. I was disputing that people around here are prone to gross exaggeration and saying that one way is a "death trap" when the FACT of the matter is, it will work just fine, but there may be a better way. You have to remember, there are a lot of people who are new here and take our word as gospel truth. I want to make sure we are giving them the truth. That's all.

Now as for the air flow thing, snakes do not require a lot of air flow. The gap between the sliding glass doors will introduce more than enough new air into the terrarium. Besides, if you open it up every couple of days, be it for cleaning, handling, misting, or whatever, you're introducing plenty of new air.

Now as for the whole light bulb debate goes in general, here's something else that works: Shine a light bulb down right over a tub of water. Not only do you get the heat in the terrarium, but you cause the water to evaporate and cause humidity. I know someone who does this with his chondros, and you'd be amazed at how successful the results are. (Easy 90% humidity with no loss, and he does have a vent on the side.)

[Linds]

Originally posted by Invictus
Ihere. I personally hypothesize that a focused heat source will drain the humidity MUCH faster than an ambient one, ie, an undertank heater will cause MORE evaporation than a light bulb, since it is directly heating the moistened source. I haven't proven this yet, so it is merely a hypothesis based on what I know of simple science.

Gonna have to disagree with your theory. All too often UTH are used to *increase* the humidity due to the fact that they cause the moisture to evaporate in to the air thus increasing the humidity. When you have a light, perhaps the susbtrate may stay moister longer, but it dries out the air, decreasing the humidity, and defeating the purpose in keeping BRB*

[Invictus]

So are you telling me that the sun (which would be a great representation of a light bulb), which heats the city of Houston, TX up to 115 degrees dries the air? LOL.. the average 110% humidity they get there would pretty much dispel that theory. An overhead heat source does NOT dry the air. The only thing that can dry the air is if the moisture moves somewhere else. Water doesn't disappear. It may go up (evaporation) but cannot disappear. It will simply move to an area of less concentration. (Diffusion). If it goes up and cannot move anywhere, you get condensation. And anyone who has ever built or used an airtight incubator can vouch for this.

Thus, even if the air did dry out, if you have a light bulb over a tub of water, the rate of evaporation will likely far exceed the rate of diffusion. Thus, there will be an ample supply of moisture in the air which will move to any area of lesser concentration.

Did I mention light bulbs are also CSA approved?

[Jeff_Favelle]

Did I mention light bulbs are also CSA approved?

My BBQ is CSA approved. So is my blow torch. What the hell does that have to do with anything? I'm surely not going to heat my Rainbow cages with them.

You are not understanding Rainbow husbandry. Rainbows are from a relatively cool, dark place in South America. They love nothing more than to sit in a pool of coolish water that is dark and not much happens. Now, you want to introduce a light source over top of that water dish? The snake won't like it. Simple. Its evolved to sit in rotting logs, under wet leaves, and in muck in the bottom of a rainforest. And now you want to use a light bulb because YOU think its better and YOU think its easier to accomplish the things that YOU want in a cage?

This is where reptile husbandry goes wrong. This is why monitors have only been bred in the last 8-10 years. This is why Boeleni are still not bred at all. This is why people are having trouble with Diamonds. People telling snakes what they think they should want.

Now, as for your heat question. There are 3 types of heat transfer and we are talking about 2 in our little discussion. You, my friend, are advocating "radiant" heat. That is, heat transfered by objects that are NOT touching. A light bulb, in this case, heats EVERYTHING in the cage, including the ambient air. I am talking about "conductive" heat transfer. That is, heat transfered by objects that are touching. Like my heat pad. It sits under the wood, heats the wood, the snake sits on the wood and heats itself up to a desired temperature, and then moves. That's how its supposed to work. What's more effective/efficient? A wood stove to heat up a room, or a reclining chair with heat cables that you can sit in and warm up? Answer: too obvious to mention. Not what would dry out the room faster? Still obvious, but for those who don't know, I've never seen a heated chair dry out a room! RADIANT HEAT WILL DRY OUT AIR FASTER THAN CONDUCTIVE HEAT!!!! Why is that? Because radiant heat travels through the air! Conductive doesn't.

As for Texas being 110% humidity (how's that possible), many many many many many other factors are at play other than the damn sun in the sky! LOL!

Moral is? Who cares what science says? I care about how many babies I get a year and how healthy my animals are for the least amount of work. And actually, its not even about less work. Its about having a setup that allows myself to make the most mistakes, and still get away with it. That way, things don't die.

[Jeff_Favelle]

And I'm not saying light bulbs don't work. In fact, I use TWO 200W light bulbs in my dwarf monitor cages. And there is constantly condensation on the sides. Its not about condensation though. Its about the heat source accomplishing things and allowing the animal to do what its designed to do. Light bulbs don't allow Rainbows to do that. Just because it works with one snake, doesn't mean it will work with all snakes. Why would you think that? If I kept my Ball Pythons as moist as my Rainbows, they'd surely suffer. But if my Rainbows can deal with the moisture, why can't the Ball Pythons? Because they have evolved differently. And Rainbows have evolved to not like light bulbs in their cages. Try it and find out. I'll have replacement babies waiting here for you. $400 for unrelated pairs.

[Stockwell]

Light bulbs might be CSA approved but they still cause more herp fires than any other heat source. Just ask Ryan and Shiela of Scales.
I'm aware of 2 herp fires in the last couple of years, both the result of light bulbs.
Flexwatt isn't CSA approved but there is politics behind that and to start with there is currently no standard for carbon film heaters in Canada.(pers conv, with Calorique last year)
Even if submitted for an LR file, the product cannot be approved until there is an applicable standard.

This is slightly off the original topic, but the dangers of light bulbs are worth mentioning here. It really worries me seeing herpers Viv and room pics full of light bulbs on clamp supports with reflectors... Those are "DEATH TRAPS"
There Invictus!(;o) Is that what you mean?.. LOL
I'm serious though.. People need to be much more cautious about using Bulbs because they cause fires , if they fall on substrate, floor, or on wooden cages.
Light bulbs in reflector sockets should never simply be placed on cage tops, as they fall when cats and dogs bump them, or get moved to unsafe places when lids are lifted, then not put back..
They need permanent protected installation!

[marisa]

Roy you are right about that warning.

I use a 60 watt bulb in a metal reflector in my Golden Geckos cage. It's in my reptile room, its also attached with a clamp and in a place I thought was sturdy...my roomates Green Iguana busted through his cage one morning really early...

I got up to check on the herps and saw Jub Jub (iguana) out and the metal reflector with bulb on sitting "face" down on the floor. I ran over and it was burning the carpet. If I had slept in or not checked on the herps in the morning my house could have burnt down. I am left with a huge black burnt spot, and some cage changes for the iguana and a lesson learned.

Marisa

[Invictus]

I agree with the metal reflectors. I do have one on my BCI, but that's because he's in a corner of the house that no one ventures, and I have no free-roaming animals in the house. That thing gets HOT... even hotter than the heat bulb in it. I'd never use one if there were ANY risk of it falling on the floor and lighting the carpet on fire.

(I'll bet my life that half of you just now imagined a flaming JCP!) hehehe

[Stockwell]

Marisa, it happens alot...Herpers should never use those clamp on
lights.. The clamps don't hold and The danger is real
Use fluorescents when ever possible, and as I previsously mentioned, those new small spiral compact fluorescents will screw into a normal light socket, produce tons of light while using much less power, hardly get hot, and last many times longer than normal bulbs. They even produce some UV
I've got them throughout my house now and they make a difference on the old hydro bill.
There is only one disadvantage, which is minor, but please be aware that..... Like any fluorescent, they cannot be dimmed!!

[Invictus]

Jeff - A few points here. One is, heat CANNOT DRY OUT AIR. It is simply not possible. The only way to dry out air is to A) Turn the moisture into vapor, which, as anyone knows, means raising it to boiling point, or B) Find a way to move the moisture to an area of lower concentration. (ie, a room dehumidifier). Heat, be it radiant or conductive, does not turn moisture into vapor. It simply causes it to move up. Once it cannot evaporate any further, it will condense until it cools, then it will fall. So tell me, where does the moisture go if you heat air with a light bulb, hmmm?

And again, Jeff... I'm not disputing reptile care with you. You probably have more knowledge in your little finger than I have in my whole body about BRBs.

My point about light bulbs being CSA approved is this - if I use flexwatt in my house and it causes a fire, not only to I void my tenant's insurance, but I void my landlord's house and proerty insurance as well. That's a bill I can't afford.

So I'll concede that for BRB's SPECIFICALLY, a light bulb is probably not a good idea. I will not concede, however, that it is a bad idea for all snakes, or even most snakes. And I most certainly will not concede to light bulbs being able to dry out air, because that is simply the most preposterous thing I have ever heard on this forum, and it completely defies simple science.