First Fresh Kill experience (WARNING - graphic detail) - Page 3

reptilesalonica · 08-21-03, 10:42 PM

I love and respect life, all life and nature. But also i understand the important role of the pyramid of life.
I don't hate mice and i don't feel guilty when i have to feed alive or pre-killed to snake(s). Mice are respectable for their contribution to the world but when a snake (who eats rodents) must eat to survive, then a mouse must die to save the life of that snake.
This is the balance of life and respecting that, you respect snake's nature.
This is their food, they eat rodents while we eat almost everything...
...continuing from that, snakes are far more innocent than humans.
They kill only what they will eat.
Man can kill something because can't understand it (bugs, snakes etc.)
~Greg~

KrokadilyanGuy3 · 08-21-03, 10:53 PM

Back in the day when I had all my snakes I had a mixture of feeding live and dead prey, depending on snake and I wont go back into the reasonings..

As for my first killing I had a large rat in a plastic sack and after the first hit the rodent was still very much alive, I guess I swing like a girl, but when I went for a second go at it the bag ripped and the rat flew across the room and the mouse was looking like he did before he went into the bag.. Needless to say Ive mastered the art of 'whacking' though I rarely use it nowadays being I only have two snakes left and both eat hoppers, which are fed live. I do sometimes prekill Flemish giants and boy that can crush an animal lover's soul in a minute.
I find it a bit odd that a lot people enjoy the death an animal, especially if they are animal keepers. Me, I enjoy all life, all the aspects of it and if the animal doesn't try and eat me while Im alive (Mosquitos) it's cool. I always get a sad feeling when it comes to feeding, dead or alive, yet I am a big fan of the food chain and I love watching nature's best at it's work.

For the record, Linds. I keep my animals out doors and they live in ponds ( crocs and turtles ) which is pretty basic of where they live in the wild. Would you cut that to being pretty close to natural living or no because there's a fence enclosing each enclosure? I'm just curious of the boundaries everyone has on the natural/captive housing bits.
GoodDay,
Xain

MouseKilla · 08-22-03, 08:51 AM

Instant deaths? Please. No method is instant. If you occasionally get in a lucky homerun swing it may be as close as it gets but other than that rare occurance the poor little vermin suffer more at our hands. The snakes take down live prey with remarkable speed and efficiency, it is a system perfected over thousands of years of evolution. Least instant of all, in my experience, are the so-called humane methods of gassing or otherwise asphixiating. You don't get your hands dirty and it may not weigh as heavily on your conscience but it is no better for the prey. And again, what about the snake? Of course we can't perfectly simulate nature and where the safety of the animals we keep is in question I believe in giving them what amounts to an unfair advantage. It may mean that you have a mouse that has no way to escape the enclosure or that you have rapped a rat in the head to stun it. All I'm saying is let the snake be a snake to the greatest extent you can possibly offer without excessive risk to the safety of the animal. If you don't agree then like I said why not just feed them through a tube? Maybe there's a market out there for canned snake food for people who want to keep snakes and not be honest about the fact that rodents must die for the snake to live. The idea that we can consistently reduce the suffering of the prey by beating it repeatedly in the head or choking it with gas is an illusion. But hey, if it makes you feel better....

daver676 · 08-22-03, 11:33 AM

I remember my first (and last) fresh killed experience. It was with a fuzzy mouse. I am very sensitive about animal death, so my gf said she would do it. She put this little fuzzy in a ZipLoc bag and gave it a wack, and it seemed dead enough. Since the snake wouldn't take it, we decided to assist feed it to the snake. But once in the mouth of the snake, the fuzzy began twitching violently and squeaking! I was absolutely horrified!

The mouse eventually stopped moving and squeaking once my bp got the idea and coiled around it, but OMG! I guess I'm just a softy. And yes, softies are allowed to own snakes!

After that, I said screw it, and just started assist feeding my bp f/t rat pinkies, and the other day, she finally ate one on her own. That made me very happy.

V.hb · 08-22-03, 09:06 PM

marisa, you and others still argue that your rodents die instantly......... Do you have them hooked up to some kind of monitor to prove this? No, iam not saying you should, its sarcasm. But honestly, you cannot prove the animal dies painlessly, and that is why I feel "whacking" rodents, espeacially in the quantity you say you have done should be frowned upon when there are humane alternatives.....

MouseKilla · 08-23-03, 08:12 AM

You don't need a monitor to know that most of the time bonking results in anything but instant, painless kills. All you have to do is read the first hand testimonials in this very forum, including the gory experience I described to figure that one out. I'm glad someone sees that truth besides me. On the other hand I would still like to hear what these so-called "humane" alternative methods are. You won't persuade me that any kind of gassing or suffocation or drowning or freezing alive is any less painfull than nature's chosen method of doing it: the snake itself. Killing rodents is the snake's very role in nature, NOTHING does it better. The only thing that comes to mind that would be truly painless would be using a veterinary anesthetic. Maybe that's the answer for those so concerned about not hurting anything. When they get back from the vet supply store I suggest they have a look in their own freezer and ask themselves if they think the meat in there was produced with such high regard for the animals it was taken from.

BOAS_N_PYTHONS · 08-23-03, 09:20 AM

INVICTUS:

OUCH, sorry to hear the experience was not the greatest. I only feed frozen thawed and hope I never have to feed live or have the power to kill a animal. I love fishing but I do look like sappiest fisherman out when its comes to releasing a fish back to the water. So hurting or killing a mouse would just be to hard for me, although I am not a fan of rodents I still could not do it. If I ever have to I will just get THEREDDRAGON to do it for me then....lol.

Cya...

Tony

Ryan and Katie · 08-23-03, 10:35 AM

Pre-killed is the way to go. I dont agree with anyone who feeds live unless they have to. Feeding pre-killed is the healthiest option for our snakes. Any parasites that the rodent is carrying should be killed by the freezing process.
People came from the basis of being hunter-gatherers, now all I have to hunt for is change in my pocket for a burger. Do you think all those cows were killed humanely?...
I have seen many wild caught snakes and alot of them have been littered with scars. Some die from infections from those bites. Yes snakes are amazing hunters but in captivity you have the ability to control certain factors. All of my snakes will happily accept pre-killed food.
It is all just perspective...

Linds · 08-23-03, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KrokadilyanGuy3
For the record, Linds. I keep my animals out doors and they live in ponds ( crocs and turtles ) which is pretty basic of where they live in the wild. Would you cut that to being pretty close to natural living or no because there's a fence enclosing each enclosure? I'm just curious of the boundaries everyone has on the natural/captive housing bits.
GoodDay,
Xain

I'm sure everyone has been referencing mainly to snakes in this thread, maybe some lizards as well. This is what I was referring to, as snakes are not housed outdoors in captivity in N. America and most of Europe I believe as well, even in zoos. Unless the animals are given the free space they are in the wild, even if they are housed outdoors, if it is small enough parasites can become a serious problem. I keep my iguana outdoors in the summer, and I attribute her age to this, but I do not consider it natural living still, even though she's outdoor with natural sun and perfect temps and humidity. No doubt its the closest thing you can get to it, and far better than the little cages we house most of our animals in indoors. The more captive the situation, the more potential problems you must be aware of.

Quote:

Originally posted by MouseKilla
Instant deaths? Please. No method is instant. If you occasionally get in a lucky homerun swing it may be as close as it gets but other than that rare occurance the poor little vermin suffer more at our hands. The snakes take down live prey with remarkable speed and efficiency,

Hmmm... now the girl I have here that feeds on live sure takes a several minutes to suffocate her prey every meal. They strike with incredible speed, but they don't kill with the same. Luckily most of my animals will take dead prey. I still stick by the fast means of killing my rodents possible. Prey suffers less than it has to, animal eating it is at no risk of injury from its dinner

How is this not better than prey suffering for minutes longer than it has to, and the animal feeding on it being at risk of serious injury? And there is instant, if you inflict massive trauma to the head it dies... gas is not instant, but it is the least painless, the animal gets dizzy and passes out before it feels a thing.

marisa · 08-23-03, 01:25 PM

I completly agree with LInds.

Like I said come to my house folks. We aren't lying here. The rodents die slower by us? ARE YOU JOKING ME? The snakes I have take up to two full minutes to kill the mouse. You honestly are telling me the mice I whack are not dead within two minutes? haha o.k. If that if the case, my part of this arguement is over. It's pointless.

Feeding mice is feeding. Go on all day about how much more humane you think are than me, in the end its the same result, the mouse is dead.

Marisa

marisa · 08-23-03, 01:28 PM

One more thing. We whack mice, so please dont tell me whats happening at my house by saying instant death is rare. I will video tape an entire whacking day for you, but apparently you already know what is going on in my home better than I do!

We have only killed about 800 rodents this way, and your right, they are all still alive an kicking after a whack, I am just heartless and still insist on that method. Yup. *rolls eyes*

No offense, this is JUST a discussion but I dont like people saying that something is going on in my home when it clearly is not. (i.e. "apparently" my mice are all alive and kicking minutes and minutes after a whack)

Marisa

MouseKilla · 08-23-03, 02:11 PM

M, You're right, what can I tell you? I have no idea what happens at your house but you must have a gift for killing the things cuz while I have had that odd homerun swing that does kill them instantly more often than not this isn't what happens. WHACK! TWITCH TWITCH!! WHACK!! TWITCH BLEED TWITCH WHACK BLEED! Maybe I'm using the wrong tool for the job... what do you use? Louisville Slugger??? Sledge hammer??? Read some of these other posts and tell me those rodents didn't suffer far more brutal deaths at human hands than if the splattered and mutillated things had just been tossed in the tank with nature's exterminators in the first place or even after the first whack. Maybe it's not like that when you do it but like I said you must have a talent. For the record, I still use the whacking method because I feel that if you must kill the rodent yourself, like in the case of left overs or big nasty rats that can potentially hurt the snake, whacking is still better than gassing which I feel is worse than anything next to death by a thousand cuts. At least you aren't one of these people that feel better buying only pre-killed prey because THEY don't have to slaughter the hundreds of mice that we both have. Basically all the pre-killed you can buy have been gassed to death for the simple reason it's the only way to kill mass quantities without spending days cracking rodent skulls. At least you're honest with yourself about the fact that sometimes someone has to do it and aren't too squeemish to do it yourself. Some folks seem to have the mistaken idea that if they don't do the deed then they aren't responsible. Malarky, that's what I say. I would like to see that instructional video you're offering though, I'm genuinely curious. As for offending me, you need not worry about that. I am being intentionally provocative because I find it brings out people's true feelings about a subject and their best arguements, all part of the fun.

Ryan and Katie · 08-23-03, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MouseKilla
At least you aren't one of these people that feel better buying only pre-killed prey because THEY don't have to slaughter the hundreds of mice that we both have.

What is that supposed to mean? All I buy is pre-killed food. I don't have the time to breed, whack, and freeze food for the over twenty snakes I own. It is really nice to have frozen food available at all times. I remember when I first started keeping snakes and I had to kill mice, hamsters, rabbits, etc. Thank god that has changed because I don't have the space or time. Have you ever whacked a rabbit?
Try not to generalize...

KrokadilyanGuy3 · 08-23-03, 02:41 PM

To stay on a snake to snake conversation..
I know (of) several private keepers who house there snakes in open enclosures which are quite large here in the states.

Quote:

if it is small enough parasites can become a serious problem

Why would that be the case? A smaller area would be fairly easy to keep clean and sterile. Also, parasites will and quite often do happen with nearly any captive animal, whether it's indoors or not; One reason why annual checkups and treatments are a must for any captive animal. Anyhow, here is a pic of the well know Haast standing outside his EDB outdoor enclosure..
Xain

MouseKilla · 08-23-03, 03:03 PM

R&K, please don't misunderstand my point, I don't think it is wrong to have or use pre-killed, I use them myself if need be, I sure won't waste any left overs. I just think that some people are fooling themselves into thinking it is somehow more humane to have someone else do the dirty work. It may make some people feel less guilty but the prey sure doesn't know the difference. As for your rabbit question, I honestly haven't done that yet but I imagine it won't be long before some of my snakes are big enough to need to eat them. Not sure why you ask but I'm sure it's quite the chore. Doesn't sound like a lot of laughs but if it must be done then I guess I'll need to do it. Part of keeping the big guys I guess. I know I won't be able to talk the wife into it, not after her splattered mouse in a grocery bag experience.