Sand Substrate! - Page 3

choriona · 08-02-03, 10:32 PM

The paper...which is why it ripped in my car...and how possible mixing may of occured. Although, after reading this thread, i think i may take them off sand. Not until next cleaning though, cause I just did one! BUTTTTT I do like the way the sand looks.

Rich · 08-03-03, 06:14 AM

Hello,
What I find amazing is how so many people keep saying that since THEY haven't had a problem with sand, they are going to keep using it. They also say that if they DO end up with a problem, then they will change! What is wrong with that type of thinking?!? You might as well say"when my reptile dies, I will then stop using the sand but until then, the hell with it". That really says alot for the keeper.
Its very true that many geckos will survive their entire life on sand without any problems. But it is equally true that there are many geckos that will become impacted. I just don't understand why someone that claims to love their reptiles would be willing to take a chance like that. It seems that more people are worried about asthetically pleasing enclosures than they are the leos health!
What I also find amusing is all the owners that claim it is "natural" for the leo. Leos don't live on sand.They are more prone to mountainous regions and grassy patches. Sand is part of the habitat, but not even close to being a major factor.
These enclosures that have a sand bottom are directly subdueing the leo into contact with an otherwise not so common factor. It just drives me crazy to think that it all started with one writer claiming that sand was what leos lived on. Now everyone thinks that is true and that it is safe.
Thank god other people have begun writing about other reptiles and updating their info or we would all still think that iguanas need animal protein to survive! (we now know that though they would OCCASIONALLY digest and insect, it is dangerous and has fatal consequences if fed on a regular basis)
That directly ties into the sand controversey because it is the exact same idea! Until the info is updated, too many people will continue to use sand and many more leos will die!
Good luck to those who use sand. I wish your leos the best!

Alicewave · 08-03-03, 07:33 AM

Well said Rich.

Wuntu: Just because they pass it does not mean it isn't building up in their system. It's obvious they are ingesting it. I would stop using it before it's too late.

Zoe: Maybe its too permanent but you could use grout in between the rocks instead of sand? Just a thought.

Rich · 08-03-03, 07:57 AM

Here is one of my enclosures that I use for my leos. Notice that it has what appears to be sand as a substrate but is nothing more than a tan fabric. (edges are wrapped under the supports so that they can't eat them) I have also been watching to see if their toes were getting stuck but their nails have had no problems.

Rich · 08-03-03, 08:08 AM

Hello ,
I have added the coding to the url and yet the image isn't being added as you can see from the post above. I have a yahoo folder that I place the images in. Could this be the problem even though the folder has public access?
I used the img button and placed the link within. I then saved the changes and i keep getting the "X". I then tried to add the source coding....<imgsrc="http://www.linkhere.com... and I added the "img at the end. Is this correct?

DragnDrop · 08-03-03, 08:46 AM

Yahoo doesn't allow direct linking to images, you'll have to supply the URL for the picture(s) as a link, not image tag.

eyespy · 08-03-03, 09:24 AM

Playsands from places like Home Depot, Lowes, ToysRUs, etc. are the most commonly found sands in a leo's digestive tract. The finer the sand, the more easily it tongue-flicks up. It also adheres to the wet walls of the digestive tract more easily.

The best test of impaction risk is not how easily the sand clumps. A clump, or acute impaction, is a fairly small risk at less than 5% of all deaths from impactions. Most impactions are more like a "sand stocking" where sand coats the digestive tract and interferes with absorption of food and sometimes even bloodflow if the accumulation is severe. Usually this problem isn't picked up until the animal is wasting away, it's a highly underdiagnosed condition because the sand layer is usually too fine to see on xrays so you need to do invasive procedures to determine if there is a sand buildup.

Wet your hand and bury it in the sand. If sand clings to the moistened skin and doesn't easily shake off, the same "sand stocking" is going to accumulate inside your herp's gut. Finer sands are more likely to cause death than medium-grained ones but even those are risky.

Clumps are more likely to cause a sudden death, but it's the day-to-day buildup of a sand layer in the gut that kills the vast majority of impacted herps.

Rich · 08-03-03, 04:50 PM

Hello,
Creating an enclosure that appears "natural" can be established without the use of sand. The plants/cacti in the pic are real. The substrate is actually a soft,tightly woven fabric. There are no frayed edges as all the sides are 6 inches UNDER the visible cloth. The leos do not have any problems with their nails getting stuck either.

Wuntu Menny · 08-03-03, 06:36 PM

Apparently, my choice of substrate is unnatural. Oddly enough, my geckos love to dig. That strikes me as a natural enough behaviour, why inhibit it? Pretty tough diggin' in astroturf!

Quote:

Notice that it has what appears to be sand as a substrate but is nothing more than a tan fabric. (edges are wrapped under the supports so that they can't eat them)

If this is an enclosure that is intended to appear natural, why are you trying to make it look like sand? According to your testimony, that would be unnatural.

Quote:

What I also find amusing is all the owners that claim it is "natural" for the leo. Leos don't live on sand.They are more prone to mountainous regions and grassy patches. Sand is part of the habitat, but not even close to being a major factor.

I wonder what sort of material is in between the grassy patches. Soil, gravel, sand... OH MY GOD! Those could cause an impaction! Perhaps our geckos' wild relatives prefer to be dishfed on the mountain slopes of Afghanistan.

Quote:

Playsands from places like Home Depot, Lowes, ToysRUs, etc. are the most commonly found sands in a leo's digestive tract. The finer the sand, the more easily it tongue-flicks up. It also adheres to the wet walls of the digestive tract more easily.

I obviously didn't put enough emphasis on the HYDROPHOBIC qualities of my sand of choice. It is coarse grade material that rarely adheres to anything wet or dry. I selected it for this reason.

Quote:

It just drives me crazy to think that it all started with one writer claiming that sand was what leos lived on. Now everyone thinks that is true and that it is safe.

Strange, now a couple of people are saying its not and look at the panic that's ensued. After 17 years as a herp keeper, I've seen enough revisions in husbandry techniques to know that the flavor of the month ain't necessarily accurate. Thanks, but I'll wait a bit and see if any valid, corroborative evidence turns up.

As I already stated, I've come across enough bad press involving every alternative substrate imaginable to consider switching. As far as I can tell, the only safe material is no material. Type until your fingers fall off, but I remain firmly unconvinced.

Quote:

Good luck to those who use sand. I wish your leos the best!

Thanks! And I'll pass along your good wishes.

WM

Rich · 08-03-03, 07:01 PM

Hello,
Perhaps you are unaware of the use of parenthesis. Notice they are around the "natural" wording. That is called sarcasm.
If you are supplying your geckos with a moist hide, then the digging issue isn't a problem.
You seem to think that everyone wants to sway you from your beliefs. That isn't the case. At least not with me. I am just pointing out what my beliefs and experiences are.
Another note from you seems to display that you have selective hearing. I never said that there wasnt ANY sand in their natural environment. I did say though that it shouldn't compromise the entire bottom of an enclosure like most gecko owners do. That ISN"T natural.
I too like the look of sand. Hence why the enclosure depicted has a "sand" look to it. It is attractive.
Before you attempt to pick apart a post, you may want to read it several times so that you understand what the author has written. Seperating the parts that suit your arguement doesn't make you look intelligent. It makes you look ignorant.
My post clearly states that sand does compromise a portion of their landscape. It doesn't occupy the majority of it.

choriona · 08-03-03, 07:15 PM

For my "sand" inclosure, the whole bottom is sand. This is where they go to the toilet (in the section marked as thier toilet.) Then they have rocks and driftwood and hides and a food dish and......all in between the sand. They even have a toy car. I have actually created levels in my tank that they climb to and can get away from the sand. Is this more like their natural environment?

Alicewave · 08-03-03, 07:19 PM

As a safety concious herper, it doesn't matter to me what their natural habitat it. The life span of Leos is much sorter in the wild because they can't regulate where they live. If I can have my Leos live 25 years instead of 15 by removing sand that has NO benefit for them, I'm gonna do it, natural or not.

Rich · 08-03-03, 07:28 PM

Hello,
I like your response Alice!

RaVeNo888o · 08-03-03, 07:36 PM

on the origional topic of filling the cracks between the rocks. Isnt there something else that is fine enough to fit and look nice, that doesnt pose an impaction problem?
I plan on keeping my crested on paper towel, but what are some safe, easy to clean things that are a little more natural. For my cal king, i use repti bark, but it looks like it would be hard for the little crested to walk on.