Yet another example of why not to feed live... - Page 3

vanderkm · 06-17-03, 01:41 PM

There is no doubt that feeding thawed prey is completely safe for the snake, and feeding live prey has risks, but the choice is not as easy as many of these posts imply. It can be very stressful and difficult to convert ball pythons to thawed prey, for both the owner and the snake.

We worked with a pair of 12 year old (WC) balls that had been given live until we got them. It was our decision to continue feeding live prey (gerbils) after attempting to switch them because the stress involved for them from prolonged stavation and repeated teasing with thawed prey that was scented, brained or presented from different angles, was worse (in my opinion) than the risk of a bite from the prey.

I was not prepared to make the snakes miserable continuously, to avoid the very low risk of a bad bite. I was also not willing personally to be constantly frustrated, to waste prey that was not eaten, or to deal with the hassle of a non-feeding snake, when the risk of a bad outcome was low if the situation was closely managed. Selfish, perhaps; but my choice, none the less.

My experience with snakes that are accustomed to feeding on live prey is that they are far better at striking accurately than those fed killed. These snakes relied on prey behaviour to signal them to strike and they were never fooled by stunned prey - in fact they were frightened of a thrashing, stunned gerbil and withdrew rather than striking. I don't think they recognized a slack, dead animal as food - they responded immediately to a live gerbil peeking into the hidebox and they didn't miss.

We never left the prey in unsupervised, we fed infreqeuntly enough that the snakes were hungry when prey was presented so they were in hunt mode, we signaled feeding was coming by misting the hide box to alert the snake, and we still had one instance where a snake was bitten while constricting the gerbil. It was a minor bite that healed without treatment. Certainly it could have been worse if it was the snake's eye, but, in my opinion, the risk of that is just not high enough to make me change my decision and make the snake's life miserable for months on end to convert him.

Based on our experience, I would never get a wild caught ball python, I would never start one on live prey, and I would never feed one a gerbil. I also have not changed my mind that we did what was best for these snakes and ourselves - I would choose to feed live if faced with the same decision now.

I advocate feeding only thawed prey, but I think it is important to remember that there is a balance between risk and benefit in any situation. Not all the snakes we keep nor the people we are in contact with can be forced to do things our way, nor should they be.

just an alternate point of view,

mary v.

Zoe · 06-17-03, 02:04 PM

Mary - I do agree with you to an extent, and all your points are valid, but I would still rather convert a snake to f/t. I know the risks are low, but it's the "it'll never to my snake" attitude that can result in a bite. In your case it was minor and you're lucky (hopefully nothing worse will ever happy

), but there's still a risk. Is it really worth taking it just to save yourself some frustration and the snake a couple month of starvation? I'm not questioning your methods (what I just wrote was meant generally) because I know you know your snakes, and I have fed my IJ a live gerbil before to stimulate eating after she fasted (stomach rot was the cause, I believe). She got it right on the nose (she was on a branch and I offered it to her in a box, and she grabbed it perfectly), and I count myself very lucky that she didn't get hurt! Maybe a little on the paranoid side

But I don't think Naara sees it the way you do. I've noticed her attitude to be "well, I tried a couple times and it didn't work, so I'm sick of trying and don't bug me about it because you're not even right." (i could be wrong, but that's the impression I'm getting). If she starved the snakes for a month or two, tried a couple different scents and level of death (? lol) in the mouse then fine, but it didn't even sound like she'd tried stunned before. There's a big difference between quitting for the sake of the snake after much trying and quitting because you tried a couple times and don't feel like it anymore. Know what I'm saying?

I guess I'm just very much against feeding live. I've seen and heard of so many bites (some resulting in blindness, death, or stays at the vets) even when they were supervised (except death when supervised). I think if the snake is healthy and has good weight, a couple months if small stress once a week doesn't compare to years of easy feedings and zero risk of injury caused by the rodent (unless the snake chokes

).

Zoe

vanderkm · 06-17-03, 11:08 PM

I totally agree Zoe that it is best to convert a snake to thawed. I just think there are some circumstances and some snakes where it is not worth it. Everyone will draw that line at different places - some will work a lot harder at the conversion and other people will be willing to live with the possibility of problems that come with not converting a snake. I support people trying to explain their viewpoint and appreciate how much the people on this list care about herps, and try to prevent the problems that come from feeding live.

I also agree that it is hard to assess someone's attitude from posts on forums, especially when people are passionate in their opinions. One thing I really have enjoyed about the forums on this site is that people can disagree in a caring way and I just wanted to bring up some points that we had eperienced for people to consider - not that I would advocate feeding live, but that I can understand why someone would choose to do it, and there are instances where I would support their decision.

Just felt the need to share a different point of view on this issue and appreciate your response (my husband can't believe anyone actually read how much I wrote!)

mary v.

V.hb · 06-19-03, 10:49 AM

I dont think Zoe has dealt with a wild caught ball that wont eat. Ive seen them kept in PERFECT conditions and still refuse to eat. Some are stubborn, it isnt a matter of who can do it better, its a matter of what the snake will take! many people try to force-feed and it turns to be successful, but its also a dangerous thing and very stressful thing to do!
not all snakes will eat pre killed prey, espeacially some picky ball pythons.

Zoe, claiming you can get them eating is pretty funny considering you keep IJ's. Carpets are a very eager to feed snake. This isnt a carpet python.. And I honestly feel Naara is doing the right thing espeacially if it narrows down to eat or not eat. The way you come off DOES seem offending, and I highly doubt Naara is lying, and thats basically what you're implying by constantly repeating yourself. I find your posts annoying Zoe because you come off with the know-it-all attitude on about EVERY SUBJECT! i dont blame her for getting annoyed.

I agree with Falcons advice, try to stun the rodent first, if live is a nessecity. Good luck!

V.hb · 06-19-03, 10:52 AM

i'll add frozen rodents lose alot of their initial scent. One thing ive also done in conversions is rubbing the f/t rodent onto a live rodent to sent it. of course make sure the live rodent isnt kept on any toxic substrates like pine, ceder etc. Doing this a few times really worked. Even the scents you can purchase in pet stores do the trick for some snakes.

Zoe · 06-19-03, 11:09 AM

V.hb - actually, my irians are terrible feeders. Very frustrating to work with.

I'm not saying she's lying, I stated how she come off as but I also said that it's hard to tell over the net and i could easily be wrong, and I partially agreed with her anyway. My "repeating myself" was just responding to posts and debating. You know, forum stuff.

I only write what I know about, and try to back up what i say with whatever facts I can get. Notice I don't post in the invert forum, the fish forum, amphib, many of the lizard forums, the hots forum, the monitors forum etc etc etc. I stick to the forums I know (unless its a general or obvious question), and admit it when I'm wrong, and at least see both sides. Hence all the "Yes I agree with you Mary"s and the "You make good points" etc.

The one thing that could be considered accusing Naara of lying is when I said that it didn't seem as though she'd tried stunned before. Buuut I also said it SEEMED that way, not that it WAS that way. And you must admit, saying "Thanks, I'll try that, thanks for the tip" to that suggestion sounds like it's never tried before. Whether she has or not I don't know, and as she said (and I said) she knows her ball pythons. I just think it's not right to give up feeding f/t (or at least f/k) without a fight (well, a lot of effort).

This is just something I'm passionate about. I've seen so many rodent bites leading to injury, blindness and death. I don't like seeing snakes in pain or dead, and you consider that annoying? So ignore me then, but I will continue to oppose live feeding.

Zoe

V.hb · 06-19-03, 11:14 AM

You have an arrogant way of seeing both sides......... Its obvious what your side is, i dont think that even needs my acknowledgement. its the fact that her snake WONT eat. and regardless of what you say, theres a big difference between a carpet and a ball.

I can pull up your posts on the varanids, amphibs other lizard forums if you like.. Not that its a bad thing to try and help people out, thats good. But dont tell people they're wrong for doing things you dont.

And if you've seen so many rodent bites, who the heck do you deal with? all the work ive done in stores, personal level breeding level i've seen bites, however not fatal, or even considered to be injuries... Not saying this isn't something that can happen but you'l read the worst of everything on the net if you know what I mean.

Zoe · 06-19-03, 11:24 AM

I know what you mean about the bites... I'm refering to pictures and namely the snakes my mother works with (vet).

Eh... I dunno, you've never worked with my carpets... lol. Seriously though, infuriating creatures. At least my boa can eat the rats I waste on them.

Okay, to me to it wasn't obvious. It seemed to me like she hadn't tried that hard and had just said to herself "they eat live in the wild, it'll be fine.". THATS what I think is wrong. Again, that may be not even close to how she sees things, I know she cares about her snakes. If she had made it very obvious that she had tried everything of course I'd have relented, as did I with Mary.

Of course it's obvious what my side is... otherwise it wouldn't be much of a debate. And yes I suppose I might come off as arrogant but rest assured it isn't my intention. I like to debate, and I like to research what's being said to know the truth. I can think of much more arrogant ways to act.

I have posted in the other forums - but mostly to questions that demand only a little research. Like the person asking about the biggest spider. Doesn't take my knowledge of spiders to find that out. And if you read what I write, unless I'm 100% sure with the research to back it up, I'll use the terms "think" and " believe" and "probably", because I know what you mean about people using theory as truth, and yes it can be irritating.

V.hb · 06-19-03, 02:15 PM

Well, your response was reasonable.. so i somewhat see your point of view.. Just try not to be so hard on people, heheh thats why they get so defensive.

crazyboy · 06-19-03, 04:18 PM

how sould you prperly kill the rat

crazyboy · 06-19-03, 04:29 PM

well i jus tt read another hread so forget about my question

Mike177 · 06-21-03, 11:11 AM

feeding live should alwas be a LAST resort to not eating peroid. and still you can alwas stun the rat or mouse or feed with asstance.

Linds · 06-23-03, 03:48 PM

crazyboy,

<a href="http://www.ssnakess.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17326">Click here</a> for the thread below that discusses your question

python_diva_06 · 07-02-03, 06:38 AM

what i do when i have to feed live is just dangle the mouse by the tail over my BP and he will just grab it by the head squeeze and eat, pretty simple and he doesn't get hurt...

python_diva_06 · 07-02-03, 07:03 AM

i forgot the part on why i feed live, sorry...
I got my BP from one of my Mom's good friends (i won't tell you the whole story of how i got him just for times sake) she told me strait up that he ate live food, when i asked he why she didn't start him on f/t she told me that she had got him from another family she knew and THEY started him on live. so ,anyway, she had just feed him the week before so i didn't neeed to worry about it til' the next sunday...sunday rolled around and mt mom when annd got him a middle sized rat and i got him out of the box and did what i said above...i think he was still a little stressed so he killed the rat, but, absolutey WOULD NOT eat it...so i was just like "what the crap?!?!?" and just left him alone for a couple of days i tryed to feed him the next Sunday with a new live rat only smaller and he took it like he hadn't ate in mounths...in between those two feedings i had kept the rat that he had killed and didn't eat and again he absolutly would not take it, i tryed putting it in a dark box for about an hour, i tryed bagging, i tryed everything i could think of in those couple of days and he just would not eat it...so needless to say i'v tryed everything i could possable think of to get him to eat that rat and he jut simpley wouldn't...so, again needless to say it's live for him for the rest of his little slithery life...