Feeding Gerbils Instead of Mice or Rats

[fr0glet]

We're all going to have opinions of what powerfeeding is, and that's all that can really be used to define it. I agree with DavidBeard's definition of power-feeding, and I think it a very loose term. Another thing I think helps define powerfeeding is the consistency of your feeding regime.

Incidentally, as an example of how powerfeeding can be a detriment, I have a cornsnake in rescue who was fed two prey items twice a week for 8 years (aside from brumation and post-brumation breeding seasons when he would refuse food). He has fatty deposits down both sides of his body near his organs, as well as a LARGE fat pad on his lower belly. He will probably die prematurely of organ failure or fatty liver disease; compare to life-threatening complications from obesity in humans. Hopefully I'll get to follow his life out and see what his span really is! He's currently 8 years old.

Pictures of that snake's lumps are available if anyone wants to see them.

[marisa]

I just fed them when they look hungry. Which means they all get fed when they are seen cruising the cage by day. And if they are at the point of cruising the cage by day, then you know they were out all night looking for food, but really getting some exercise!

With my BP his "when I am hungry" is about every 5-7 days. He really starts getting active, and the next day I fed him. The corns normally get 7 days, and if they are eagerly searching for food then I give it to them. Sometimes they wait as long as 14 days, or as little as 5.

Marisa

[fr0glet]

Marisa I think you've got things all figured out

I feed on either Saturday or Sunday, and about once every 1-2 months I'll skip a week. Today was feeding day, and my young bp who's been refusing food for 3 weeks finally succumbed(sp?) to the braining method!

[Jeff_Favelle]

Its not so cut and dry like that. If I had a corn that I kept at 72F constant for 24 hours every day and I fed it 1 adult mice a week, it could get fat. Without the proper temps for thermoregulationm snakes will get fat. Have you ever been to where a BP lives? It is damn hot. I mean unbearable.

I have a male Ball that's 11 months old and weighs 1100 grams. You'd think he was fat and over-fed right? Nope. He's the skinniest Ball I have ever seen (save for the crappy imports that come in every year). Why is that? Access to the proper temps. So my opinion, based on my years of breeding is: you cannot overfeed snakes that have access to the correct temperatures for thermoregulation. Its impossible. The food goes right through them.

Thoughts?

[tHeGiNo]

Hmmm, I think that is highly probable, I honestly do. In fact I have never even thought of it that way. If it IS false, I'm sure it is fair to say the chances of an obese snake are greatly reduced with the proper temperatures. Nevertheless, it is definitely a debatable statement.

[fr0glet]

That's a fantastic angle, and one I haven't considered enough. I have no idea what the temps of that corn were for his life, he was in neodesha cages with overhead lighting only.

So if digestion is greatly slowed by decreased temperatures, would the snake still eat as much as offered? Could an underheated snake be powerfed?

Your point makes perfect sense in the debate Jeff... that snakes kept at the high end of their temperature range will always process meals better and perhaps even thrive more. In my opinion accurate temperatures are the most important husbandry issue, most often overlooked.

[Jeff_Favelle]

That's an excellent question Froglet. It would boil down to what the clues are for a snake to seek out food (unless they are completely 100% opportunistic, which might be the case). So if the clues are temperature related, then cold temperatures would induce fasting. But it could be other factors. Circadian Rhythm, humidity, barometric pressure, photoperiod, etc etc etc. Who knows. Check out this post by a guy who's bred snakes longer than I've been alive. It'll definitely open your eyes. Read the whole thread.




http://www.varanus.net/cgi-bin/eboar...t&message=4389

[Jeff_Favelle]

In my opinion accurate temperatures are the most important husbandry issue, most often overlooked.

That's the smartest sentence I've heard in a long long time. And unfortunately all too obvious. Let me word it another way:

"I think that temperature control for animals that are ectothermic and cannot create their own heat to metabolize their food to exist is the most important part of husbandry."

Sounds kinda funny and obvious when I word it that way eh? Pretty much every problem in reptile keeping can be traced back to temperatures. Either too high, or, in most cases, too low. But not so cut and dry either. Sometimes, in the case of monitors and other diurnal reptiles, they need a range. A huge range. So there is no one right temperature. Keeping reptiles is not easy. They are at the mercy of the keeper and a lot of times, the keeper hasn't a clue.

Great debate, thanks for sharing!!

[BoidKeeper]

Jeff if you can't over feed/power feed then how do we explain this; I have a 02 female that I was feeding F/R then H/R every 5 days or so since July 02. I recently cut her back to once a week because she started to get fat. Rolls and creases fat. She has lots of floor space and a hot spot that ranges between 90-95. So my question is why is was she getting fat instead of continuing to grow? On Aug 11th she weighed 134g. On Nov 23rd she weighed 349g. On Feb 20th she weighed 573g and then on the 13th of Apr she weighed 720g. I measured her last shed on the 23th of April and it was just over 36" which means that she is not even 3 feet yet. That was a big jump. Is it an individual metabolism thing? I hope this helps add a new twist to the debate.
Thanks

[jncoclub]

In the beginin gour BP wouldn't eat anything but black gerbils. It was getting expensive (even with the "friend discount" from the owner). It may have just been luck, but we got her to switch to rats. I've found that when we were feeding live, the gerbils definitely put up a bigger fight compared to the rats. Be careful. That's my 2 bits.

[tHeGiNo]

BoidKeeper, I may be mistaken but to fully debate your problem we would probably need more info. Number one, how many items were you feeding every 5 days and what size. If it is a July 02 you probably should have cut back to once a week anyways. What are you using to measure temps, is it a reliable thermometer?

[BoidKeeper]

1 F/R then 1 H/R at a time. I use a laser thermometer similar to a reytek. It has been calabrated against murcury and it's very acurate. As far as I know she was born in the spring of 02 and I got her in July of 02.
Trevor

[Jeff_Favelle]

Could be many things Trev.:

Are all people skinny? No. Are all people fat? No. Is it ALWAYS diet that governs why people are skinny or fat? Nope. So that leaves genetics. Some animals are just predispositioned to store more adipose tissue (fat) than other animals, even of the same species.

But it could be something more. Maybe the prey items are all wrong in their content. Maybe your feeder rodents are fed heavy protein and fat. Maybe not, but that's a factor to consider.

90-95F? That's warm, but Balls have been lasered at 100F in the wild. Heck, even Cal-Kings have been lasered at 103F in the States in the wild. Have you ever got down to the ground (Ball microclimate) on a hot day in a dry area with little to no vegetation? Its nuts! I mean you could pass out from the heat. Literally.

Also, there's the consideration of exercise. Snakes in captivity don't get enough of it and its often overlooked, especially with Ball Pythons, as they are the king of "rack snakes".

No movement and lower temperatures = one fat snake!

But again, without being around your setup and seeing your snakes every day, how can I possibly know the answer?

[fr0glet]

I found the varanus forum thread very interesting, and also enjoyed learning about Circadian rhythm, which apparently has a million implications! Thanks for the brain-boost.

I need to get a thermal heat gun, badly. One can only get so accurate with digital thermometers and wire sensors.

[Jeff_Favelle]

Froglet, being in the Pacific Northwest, go down the street and get this one from these guys!!!



https://secure.ioncart.net/beanfarm/...nd+Hydrometers


Circadian Rhythm is crazy. It makes my head hurt sometimes thinking about it, so I usually opt for an easier explanation to things, ha ha!