Been a way for a while, have a concern

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by TRD

...by the same logic eyeless, scaleless, or whatever deformities that can be bread should be OK because "it lives".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence when it comes to how reptiles perceive their world, or how they "feel" about it.

It's fine anyone calls it my opinion, it's also fine nobody agrees as I cant provide conclusive evidence it adversely affect the snake as that simply doesn't exist. In the very least anyone should be able to agree that it is not an ethical practice that despite the certainty neurological issues in varying degrees will be present in the animal it is not an issue.

I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat here, I'm simply asking to take a step back and think about it.

The animals are born with this disability and are thriving in spite of it. There is the fact that we recognize the wobble as abnormal as it is, however the animal doesn't and hasn't

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by TRD

...by the same logic eyeless, scaleless, or whatever deformities that can be bread should be OK because "it lives".

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence when it comes to how reptiles perceive their world, or how they "feel" about it.

It's fine anyone calls it my opinion, it's also fine nobody agrees as I cant provide conclusive evidence it adversely affect the snake as that simply doesn't exist. In the very least anyone should be able to agree that it is not an ethical practice that despite the certainty neurological issues in varying degrees will be present in the animal it is not an issue.

I'm not trying to shove it down anyone's throat here, I'm simply asking to take a step back and think about it.

The animals (spider gene) are born with this disability and are thriving in spite of it. There is the fact that we recognize the wobble as abnormal as it is, however the animal doesn't and hasn't. He is being a python.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

@Aaron - 'Their job is to eat, poop, grow, stay alive and proliferate the species.'

I'm surprised you could have such a low basis for what constitutes a quality life and the criteria differ greatly from mine.

And the challenge as always. TRD has at least provided a proper scientific peer reviewed paper to back his argument (which you have discussed last have done flaws but it is peer reviewed). So seeing as we are always asked for papers I will ask for the same. A paper demonstrating snakes are purely instinctive animals that are unduly affected by neuro issues.

Yeah I'll get one for you. There's lots out there proving the primal nature of the snake brain. I'm just at work so you'll have to be patient Danny. Thank you.

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

Take random online pictures out of context to prove a point. Great. One animal out of 100,000's. That animal could have been flipped over for picture taking. Further, I've never had a spider hatch like that and if I did I'd feed it to something else. There's very few cases of spider morphs being this bad where it might affect it's quality of life.

Originally Posted by dannybgoode

That's a breeder website - why would I have any interest in what someone who is making money through unethical breeding has to say? I'm asking for peer reviewed papers.

Oh a breeder website eh? You don't trust them. However, you trust the peer reviewed paper TRD posted which is based on the information given by breeders. So which is it, you don't have interest in anything they say or you only care to listen to them when it supports your side of things?

Originally Posted by TRD

I'm sorry Albert, I don't want to come off harsh, but that is in no way scientific. He's following the same logic as many others to justify with "They live; poop; feed; breed; hence are there is no issue"

He even literally states that...

"We breed them because it's a morph, in truth every morph is a "defect". People have brought up the arguement that they would not fair well in the wild. My response would be, they are only going to remain in captivity and they eat, poop, breed, live healthy lives just like any other ball python in captivity."

For god sake they even list the morphs paired with spider and some of them just flat out die at birth, or shortly after. How does that possibly show a healthy genetic make-up? Is it so hard for people to admit that "Yes we make a nice looking snake, but it's not viable to continue this project due to the neurological issues attached to it."

He even states it's attached to the spider gene, it can't be out-crossed.

...It's fine, we are humans, and we love to solve complexities, explore, find the limits, but for christ sake don't do it with living organisms. And certainly not with a commercial aspect attached to it where every person can just simply obtain one and start his own "breeding project".

I'm all cool with morphs, or ball pythons, even if it sometimes frustrates me to see the sheer numbers of them at expos and I see no value in color patterns outside of the natural ones, but some things just take it one step too far and tick me off.

You seem pretty reasonable. I'd debate with you a little more.

A few points, the spider morph is what it is. It's polarizing. Surprisingly, they do very well in pet stores and a lot of people want them as pets. So breeders follow demand more often then not (also the reason you see so many at shows. They sell and support peoples hobbies.)

Secondly, yes when bred to certain other morphs it causes fatalities. People simply don't do those pairings anymore. We can't condone this because in many aspects of our world, including humans, the crossing of two genes/parents can result in a fatal death. Or all on it's own.

Example: A friend of mine tried to have a kid. She has a condition ( I can't recall the name) where she likely will give birth to a stillborn baby. She did. She wasn't aware of this prior to being pregnant and she had a rough go of it.
She tried again and has a healthy child some years later.

**** happens on a genetic level in every species, including our own. We can't simply say "Well if you put X and Y together it becomes lethal so X should never be alive in the first place." All we can do is keep X and Y apart, snakes, humans, whatever else someone breeds.