An Unfortunate Loss

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

They may not be able to say for sure if it was heat. While rainbows and heat do not mix well, this often won't be apparent on a necropsy. (And if it was heat, the age difference would explain it...at 1.5 years they have much better tolerance for the occasional climate or water oops.) Fingers crossed they can give you some closure.

I'm thinking not as well, if the results come in inconclusive, I'm just going to have to assume it was the heat, without any other signs it's the only logical explanation. If that's the case, any future baby BRBs I get will be kept in a room without the space heater, at least until they're older, but I may just start keeping my BRBs separate from the others so they can have a cooler room.

They still didn't have my results Friday, but I called rather early while they were on lunch break. They said they should have gotten them in today, so hopefully if I get a break at work before 4:30 tomorrow I can call them, otherwise I'll have to wait until Wednesday. The tests are done in Raleigh, so I won't get the results until the Raleigh lab sends them in, which is why I haven't gotten them yet.

[Snakesitter]

Good pathology work takes time. I'd rather let them have it and chase down all avenues, so as to have as complete an answer as possible.

How is your other noodle doing?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

Good pathology work takes time. I'd rather let them have it and chase down all avenues, so as to have as complete an answer as possible.

How is your other noodle doing?

Yeah I called them today, and all they have is that they found salmonella and septicemia, which isn't surprising considering certain amounts of both are always present. As of right now, the histopathology hasn't come in so they can't even tell me where in the body they found the bacteria so as of right now it's not a probable cause. If they need more time, I could wait until next week to call, but they did say I could call tomorrow. I'm just worried about a disease in my other snakes, which is why I'm calling so often.

Everybody else is doing great so far, I figured since it would take so long to get the results, I'd go ahead and feed everyone. It's been 2-3 days and no one's showing signs of illness. The other BRB is also doing fine, I see him coming out at night and exploring like usual, nothing wrong with him physically. Not even a scale out of place.

[bigsnakegirl785]

So once the final reports came in, the vet who did her necropsy seemed to think that the septicimia infection did in face cause her death. They found inflammation in her liver, large intestine, and spleen. They also found some granulomas in her liver, and a mild case of pneumonia. The colonies they found in her intestines were rather large and fast-growing as well, but they didn't get any growth from the cultures taken from her lungs.

The granulomas would have been caused by the salmonella bacteriums, and the vet says that the pneumonia was probably a side-effect of her infection putting stress on her body and lowering her immune system further, and not a cause of her death.

From the information I provided, the vet said that the large meal was probably what caused the infection to start, paired with heat that wasn't high enough to help her digest her meal properly. Especially since she digested her first, smaller meal normally.

It's really unfortunate that this happened, because if she had shown any other signs I would have taken her to the vet. but she showed no symptoms of a septicimia infection other than the weird stool (which wasn't listed as a symptom when I google it). I wish I would have known it was too late to help her once her meal was already underdigested, so I could have taken her to the vet and got her the antibiotics she needed. I won't be so careless in the future.

I will be a little more careful with the size of prey I offer, and offer the usual meal size I offer to my snakes, and I'll keep future BRBs at slightly warmer temps than I did with Guin. I started Sanji off with his thermostat set to 85F for a floor temp of 83F, but I only set Guin's to 82F for a 79-80F hot spot. It's also possible that the overall heat of the room caused similar symptoms as being too cold (regurge, underdigestion, etc.), so I'll also keep my BRBs in a cooler room so they have a cool enough cool end.

I can attach some phone pics of the paper form of the report later, when I get it. I've got the electronic version, but it would be easier to omit personal information by just taking some photos.

[Minkness]

Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that! At least you know now so that you won't make the same mistake twice. =(

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Minkness

Oh man, I am so sorry to hear that! At least you know now so that you won't make the same mistake twice. =(

I knew underdigested meals were bad and potentially deadly, I just didn't think that raising her temps wouldn't have helped. If I notice something like this in the future, I'll be sure to take that snake to the vet for a check up so hopefully this won't happen again. I generally keep my snake's meals rather small, so this usually isn't an issue, but my other snakes are also more tolerant of high temperatures so I don't feel as bad offering extra heat as I do with my BRBs.

[Snakesitter]

Again, so sorry for your loss.

I'm surprised that too large of a meal could be listed as a source of death -- while regurgs are stressful, they are rarely fatal in and of themselves...especially within so short of a window. And sepsis is often a secondary infection after the immune system is weakened. I wonder if that rodent was just "bad"?

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Snakesitter

Again, so sorry for your loss.

I'm surprised that too large of a meal could be listed as a source of death -- while regurgs are stressful, they are rarely fatal in and of themselves...especially within so short of a window. And sepsis is often a secondary infection after the immune system is weakened. I wonder if that rodent was just "bad"?

It's possible. I did check the mouse for overall freshness, but maybe something else was in it? My BCI and other BRB are eating the same mice from the same bag as Guin did, and they're still doing fine 2 meals later.

The vet did say it was a combination of too low temps and a big meal, which would have resulted in some of the rodent going bad in her stomach. Essentially rotting because she couldn't digest it properly. This could have caused the rodent to go "bad."

Either way, it was the meal she was provided that was the culprit.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by bigsnakegirl785

It's possible. I did check the mouse for overall freshness, but maybe something else was in it? My BCI and other BRB are eating the same mice from the same bag as Guin did, and they're still doing fine 2 meals later.

The vet did say it was a combination of too low temps and a big meal, which would have resulted in some of the rodent going bad in her stomach. Essentially rotting because she couldn't digest it properly. This could have caused the rodent to go "bad."

Either way, it was the meal she was provided that was the culprit.

I find this very interesting.

My un-educated medical guess is there is something else underlying. Possibly neurological.

Snakes aren't that dumb to put themselves in that type of harms way. A snake will regurge usually when the temps aren't adequate to digest it all the way so the fact that this snake apparently didn't do that speaks volumes about the issue at hand.

I don't see any logic in a species willingly eating itself to death.

[Minkness]

I dunno about that Aaron. What about those snakes that eat prey too big for it causing it to suffocate or burst open? There's that anaxonda that ate a caiman too big fornit and it died, then I have seen where a BP ate another BP that was almost the same size as it's self and it's stomach burst to the point you could see the snake that it had eaten.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

I find this very interesting.

My un-educated medical guess is there is something else underlying. Possibly neurological.

Snakes aren't that dumb to put themselves in that type of harms way. A snake will regurge usually when the temps aren't adequate to digest it all the way so the fact that this snake apparently didn't do that speaks volumes about the issue at hand.

I don't see any logic in a species willingly eating itself to death.

She did regurgitate. She had a small regurge 3 days after I fed her, and then what appeared to be underdigested poo about 7-8 days after her meal.

Originally Posted by Minkness

I dunno about that Aaron. What about those snakes that eat prey too big for it causing it to suffocate or burst open? There's that anaxonda that ate a caiman too big fornit and it died, then I have seen where a BP ate another BP that was almost the same size as it's self and it's stomach burst to the point you could see the snake that it had eaten.

I'm not sure about the caiman incidence, but if you're talking about the picture I think you're talking about, the ball python that was split open was incredibly emaciated, almost to the point of death. That, on top of the stress of the drive and being around so many other snakes, is most likely what led it to eating the other bp. You can even see a living bp at the top of the photo that looks like a skeleton. Or jerky, or something.

[Minkness]

I don't remember the pictures that vividly, but the BP was one I saw on this forum somewhere. No idea where now as it was way back when I first joined.

[Aaron_S]

Originally Posted by Minkness

I dunno about that Aaron. What about those snakes that eat prey too big for it causing it to suffocate or burst open? There's that anaxonda that ate a caiman too big fornit and it died, then I have seen where a BP ate another BP that was almost the same size as it's self and it's stomach burst to the point you could see the snake that it had eaten.

I have the ball python picture. There seemed to be extenuating circumstances with the story. I leave it at inconclusive as there's other pieces to the logic behind this.

The anaconda and caimen could be various reasons. The caimen was still alive and ripped the animal, the claws on the caimen could have caught the snakes insides and ripped it open and then other animals opened it up further. There's a multitude of logical answers that point to the size of the meal NOT being the culprit.

[Minkness]

Good to know. Thanks for the info =)

[treaux]

Interesting to think it was the food size. Makes me nervous about switching my little Marco to hoppers eventually (though that won't be for a while...).