Ethics of snake food...

[pet_snake_78]

Egg eaters would be a good choice, I have a pair and absolutely love them. Just make sure they are feeding on Quail eggs or you'll be breeding finches, too. I occasionally get area parents who are asking me about snakes that won't need mice mainly because the mice just creep them out rather than an ethical issue but you could really fill a nice void by working with some other species. If you're willing to breed finches too you could produce egg eating snakes.

[Pogie]

Originally Posted by mistersprinkles

Alberta paid the Pied Piper big bucks to clear all the rats out back in the late 1800s. That's why.

I'm surprised my little post has caused so much discussion. I do not have any reptiles at this time. Why am I on a snake forum? Because I like snakes, and I like snake people. I am still interested, but from afar. I would likely never have another snakes, except perhaps an egg, fish, or insect eater. No more rats and mice.

Also there was a time when there were no rats or mice in pet stores for months in my area so I bought a pair of hamsters and... ya... so there's t hat.

Curious as to why you would feed fish and insects but not mice/rats? What's the difference? Is it because the mice/rats have fur and the others you mentioned don't? Not slamming I just am really interested in what you think the difference is between these animals. Or bugs lol. I see or hear things like this often.

Either way something will die in order to feed the snakes.

[Minkness]

Garter snakes eat fish, lizards, frogs and toads. Also heard they eat bugs like crickets and locust. The egg eaters sound interesting but I personally am not a fan of birds and prefer to work up to breeding my own food source if possible. Have a dubia roach colony right now. I currently purchase and will probably always purchase, frozen rodents because live is a no no and I can't kill them myself.

I get where OP is coming from, I just love my animals more than I care to give into the morals or ethics of keeping them.

[Pogie]

Originally Posted by Minkness

Garter snakes eat fish, lizards, frogs and toads. Also heard they eat bugs like crickets and locust. The egg eaters sound interesting but I personally am not a fan of birds and prefer to work up to breeding my own food source if possible. Have a dubia roach colony right now. I currently purchase and will probably always purchase, frozen rodents because live is a no no and I can't kill them myself.

I get where OP is coming from, I just love my animals more than I care to give into the morals or ethics of keeping them.

Same here I couldn't kill something if my life depended on it lol. I like all critters, don't matter if they have scales, fur or bald rotfl. Thank goodness for someone who does it for me or I wouldn't have a snake.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by pet_snake_78

I do cringe when I see the stereotypical video feed of someone feeding live to the tune of a Screamo band. It's pretty well accepted that snakes should be on F/t when possible for the benefit of all involved. However, when people become so far from the sources of our food, as most are today, we begin to become divorced from the reality of the food chain. Just by existing every human on earth is killing thousands of animals. The house you live in has killed dozens of animals when being built and prevented hundreds of others from having a place to be born and live. The roads you drive on kill and injure tens of thousands of animals daily.. right now there are deer with broken legs waiting to die, turtles about to be smashed by oncoming traffic, etc. Right now there are chickens being killed so you can eat. Cows will be slaughtered today and the meat hung on a hook. SO in retrospect, do I think feeding a thawed mouse to a snake is a moral issue... no way.

Even if you don't eat meat, you will kill thousands of animals. Pesticides, land clear, tractors chopping animals to pieces, water being taken from wildlife habitat and sprayed onto monocultured fields designed specifically to prevent any type of ecosystem from living in there so the plants can maximize their enegy, etc. There is no way any human can exist without resulting in the death of thousands if not millions of other animals in his or her lifetime.

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

[millertime89]

Originally Posted by jjhill001

Not even close to true. There was a 30-40 page thread on BP.net where people ferociously argued this same topic.

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

[lady_bug87]

Bp.net.... i think I was on there for like an hour before I threw my hands up and said "nuts to this"

[jossh27]

i haven't read this entire thread, but whats the difference between feeding our pets live, or f/t over us (people) eating any kind of meat? cows and chickens among tons of different animals are strictly bread to feed us. - rats and mice are no different in my eyes.... maybe I'm a jerk, but i couldn't care less about the life of a mouse or rat or even a cow for that matter so long as it dies without suffering

[Rattlehead]

About 2 months ago my supplier of f/t mice had a shortage. I had to find new feeders, and I found a store with better looking animals. The thing is that they only sell them live, so I've been doing the dirty job myself. Last time I tried the CO2 method, mixing white vinegar and baking soda in a container. Most of the mice fainted quickly, but there were 3 that resisted a lot, for minutes. Felt bad for those little guys, but like my gf and other people in this thread say, there are animals being used as food everywhere.

[kuester]

This is the reason i feed frozen/thawed. I'd actually like to keep a pet rat one day but just as you said I'd feel too bad. Even though i feed frozen/thawed i still have this feeling that you've explained come over me but then i think the rats suffering is already done, i love my snakes very much and since they're captive i must provide for them. Also i would never feed live but in the wild that's just natural. Not even just for snakes but any predator the Prey suffers usually. And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond. My snakes all are used to my scent and so while other people can hold them just fine they always try to slither back to me because I'm safe, recognizable and familiar. I think to myself that they love me but i know this isn't the case with reptiles. Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

[kuester]

And like others have said everything eats something
I think how we humans slaughter our meats is far worse than a snake eating a rat.

[jjhill001]

Originally Posted by millertime89

Sorry, but no. F/t is better as long as the animal will take it. There is no benefit to live feeding despite what is said on that forum. If you can find me scientific evidence that there is some advantage to feeding live vs f/t I'll listen.

Gonna post excerpts and also the link to the article.

Pros of Live
... The single biggest advantage live or fresh-killed rodents have over their frozen counterparts is simply that they are the freshest food source available. No proteins, vitamins or nutrients have been lost through time spent in the freezer. There seems to be a misconception on the part of frozen enthusiasts that there is no breakdown of these components in frozen, no doubt started by those who market frozen. Don't believe me? Go to your doctor and tell him you intend to raise your new baby on nothing but frozen foods from birth to adulthood and see what he says. Be prepared for a visit shortly after by child services. Also consider that human food gets lots of preservatives and additives designed to offset these losses, while frozen rodents get nothing. If there's no losses, why would profit hungry corporations go to the extra time and expense of adding these? The answer seems self-evident.

Another strong advantage of utilizing live pinkies and fuzzies is that they can be simply dropped in the cage and left overnight with stubborn feeders or new hatchlings. Small frozen rodents will quickly begin to decay and must be removed quickly from the cage if not eaten immediately. Many snakes resent the intrusion into the cage, and may not calm down enough to feed before the item must be removed. Other new babies may prefer to feed at night. This can make use of frozen foods impractical in large collections. ...


Pros of Frozen


... There's really only one advantage to using frozen feeder rodents and that's convenience. Being able store a small quantity of frozen mice behind the frozen lasagna will eliminate a few trips to the store. You might even get a slightly better price by purchasing in quantity...


Cons of Frozen


... Earlier in this article, we touched on loss of vitamins, minerals and nutrients during the freezing process. But we did not mention that the length of time spent in the freezer can increase these losses, not to mention cause freezer burn. It is recommended that you obtain the freshest frozen rodents possible. Making the assumption that your store has provided fresh ones can be a mistake, they may have been in the back of their freezer for months (or worse). Many commercial sources for frozen rodents will date each package with the date frozen, a real help in determining freshness.


Now let's talk about problems with the method of feeding frozen. First and foremost, the frozen rodent MUST be thawed COMPLETELY before use. Each year we get several inquiries from keepers who have failed to do this and are having serious medical problems with their pets as a result. We always hold the rodent in the hand, feeling the thickest parts (especially the head) for any cool temperatures which might indicate that it is not completely thawed before feeding.


But remember, over-thawing can be a whole lot worse! Read the label on a package of chicken. See where it discusses the dangers of exposing it to room temperatures? Well, this is exactly what you MUST do before feeding a frozen rodent! And this rodent is complete, with all gut content and bacteria, not to mention urine and feces, while the chicken has been stripped of all such nasties. So here we are, deliberately exposing a tainted piece of meat to dangerous temperatures before happily handing it to our pet. Sound bad? Well it is.


Salmonella and other nasty organisms can develop amazingly fast, and the real danger here is hidden. You happily feed without knowing and suddenly your snake has slimy green feces and is losing weight faster than an anorexic fashion model. Oh, and remember when you had to touch it to see if it was thawed? Now YOU'VE been exposed! Like it says on that chicken package, always wash hands and surfaces thoroughly with disinfectant (including feeding tongs or similar) after use.


Attempt to minimize the exposure to room temperatures. Thaw as quickly as possible, and offer immediately to your snake. Remove uneaten rodents quickly from the cage, in thirty minutes or less. many keepers will use the microwave oven to quickly thaw rodents. We don't recommend this for several reasons: It's easy to overheat the rodent and burn your snake. It's easy to accidentally cook portions of the meat (which reptiles cannot digest properly). It exposes your microwave oven to the same potential diseases as discussed above. many keepers will place the rodent inside a Ziploc bag and thaw in warm water. This greatly increases the rate of thawing and is the preferred method...


Conclusion


...the best and safest food source for captive snakes is fresh-killed rodents from clean disease-free stock...

Source: VMS Herp

The Learning Center - Live (F/K) vs Frozen (F/T)

[Aaron_S]

This article lost me right at the end. Once it spoke about using a microwave to thaw rodents. The writer's clearly did no research and just added reasons not to based on building a case for their argument.

If anyone has ever tried to thaw a rodent in a microwave it doesn't do what they say it does. Usually they burst.

Secondly, snakes and humans have completely different physiology when it comes to eating. Snakes can eat whole prey at time of birth whereas humans cannot. So the analogy at the start is flawed.

Continuing with a similar line of thinking. What bacteria may be present on a rat doesn't necessarily translate to being dangerous for the snake. Besides snakes eat rotten food all the time in the wild and they are completely okay. Why is the thawed version different? Do the snakes not eat all the gut flora in a fress-killed rodent just the same as the frozen one? The same "dangerous" gut flora this article speaks about?

This writer also clearly never raised baby snakes. Following with the previous point that snakes can and do eat nasty decaying prey items in the wild it is perfectly okay to leave a thawed rodent in with a snake for longer than 30 minutes. I, and many others, leave them in over night and dispose of them the following morning.

Interesting note, they start the article off by saying they've formed a few opinions on this topic. By the end they are commenting as if it's fact. It is merely their opinion with no substantial evidence to prove it one way or the other. I do not see them mentioning any studies to determine the loss of nutrients or otherwise and how deterimental those are to the growth of snakes in various life stages.

It is merely opinion as they so say.

[RAD House]

That is nothing but the opinion of VMS and it is opposed to what scientific studies have found about frozen food.

[bigsnakegirl785]

Originally Posted by kuester

This is the reason i feed frozen/thawed. I'd actually like to keep a pet rat one day but just as you said I'd feel too bad. Even though i feed frozen/thawed i still have this feeling that you've explained come over me but then i think the rats suffering is already done, i love my snakes very much and since they're captive i must provide for them. Also i would never feed live but in the wild that's just natural. Not even just for snakes but any predator the Prey suffers usually. And snakes can bond too! They may not have as deep as a connection but they can bond. My snakes all are used to my scent and so while other people can hold them just fine they always try to slither back to me because I'm safe, recognizable and familiar. I think to myself that they love me but i know this isn't the case with reptiles. Also my corn is pretty attached to my doberman, not my other dog. Both my dogs have the same demeanor and personality but my corn will sleep with my doberman and not my other dog.

You really shouldn't be allowing your snake and dogs in contact with each other. That's how you lose a snake.


As far as frozen not having as many nutrients...does it really seem like it makes much of a difference? They grow just as well on f/t as any snake raised on live, they aren't malnourished, and they seem healthy if all other husbandry is good. Is an insignificant amount of supposed nutritional benefit really worth putting your snakes' lives at risk?