Bubbly mouth

[Albert Clark]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

This is science. There is no other way. You can say or believe what you want but it doesn't mean you're right.

It's akin to calling the sky green when in fact it's blue.

Anyway, I think Matt was trying to say that humidity isn't a cause of RIs. They don't help if bacteria or a virus is present but they won't be the sole cause of an RI.

In that case all of mine will have an RI every shed cycle as I jump up the humidity to 100%.

There is science and then there is junk science! I don't know what you mean about the sky being green and you can make all the poor analogies that you want. You believe what you want and I will do the same. I never said humidity was a cause of RIs. The OP was about "HIGH HUMIDITY". That is what I said is a cause of RIs was "HIGH HUMIDITY" in enclosed spaces for "extended" periods of time associated with poor or inadequate ventilation. It's the "HIGH HUMIDITY" for extended periods of time that creates the medium for infection. It's the "HIGH HUMIDITY" for extended periods of time in enclosed spaces with poor ventilation that is the cause.

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

There is science and then there is junk science!(And what you are dispensing brother, is basically junk). I never said humidity was a cause of RIs (Actually you did...quoting form your edit: High humidity is a cause of ri in ball pythons!. The OP was about "HIGH HUMIDITY". That is what I said is a cause of RIs was "HIGH HUMIDITY" in enclosed spaces for "extended" periods of time associated with poor or inadequate ventilation. It's the "HIGH HUMIDITY" for extended periods of time that creates the medium for infection. It's the "HIGH HUMIDITY" for extended periods of time in enclosed spaces with poor ventilation that is the cause.

And you're correct, Just because I said said it, doesn't make it right. Do some research, understand microbiology. Yes, high humidity can promote propagation of certain species of bacteria, viruses, or fungi....but so can arid environments. If you do not have the organism, you don't have infection dude. It's as simple as that. What you do to facilitate growth of said organism is the variable.

[Albert Clark]

First of all Mr. MDT, get it right! If you are going to quote me then quote me correctly! I never said humidity causes RIs, it was always "HIGH" humidity. Like I said before "HIGH" humidity is a cause of RIs. Especially when accompanied by enclosed spaces and poor or inadequate ventilation! I don't need you to attack my credibility or use my mother as a piece of your inappropriate analogies! You don't know me and you certainly need to learn how to respect people who don't agree with you. Research is my middle name sir! I am not your" DUDE" and I am not your pet. I am very well versed in all of the sciences thank you! I am done with this thread and your inabilities. Have a fantastic day!!! issedo ff:

[MDT]

just copied and pasted directly from your edit (to be fair, as posted above, it does say "high humidity")....not attacking your credibility. and it wasn't not "your" mom....it was a "generic" mom (crap, let's say it was my mom....geez...she'd still be wrong).

albert, you clearly have a lot of history w reptiles, and i've learned some stuff from your posts. that's what this forum is for, learning from each other.... i'm not trying to disrespect you. what i was trying to do is explain the germ theory of infection (because it seems to be escaping)...apparently that was a mistake.

back to the O.P. i think this boils down to good vet evaluation AND making sure your husbandry for the species in question is spot on (again, refer to Shuan's post, prob the most informative one on this thread). best of luck to you.

[jarich]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

First of all Mr. MDT, get it right! If you are going to quote me then quote me correctly! I never said humidity causes RIs, it was always "HIGH" humidity. Like I said before "HIGH" humidity is a cause of RIs. Especially when accompanied by enclosed spaces and poor or inadequate ventilation! I don't need you to attack my credibility or use my mother as a piece of your inappropriate analogies! You don't know me and you certainly need to learn how to respect people who don't agree with you. Research is my middle name sir! I am not your" DUDE" and I am not your pet. I am very well versed in all of the sciences thank you! I am done with this thread and your inabilities. Have a fantastic day!!! issedo ff:

So many exclamation points dude!! MDT was quite respectful and calm, while you seem incredibly overexcited and unable to have a simple conversation where people might possibly have varying points to contribute. Oh wait...I mean... various points to contribute!!!!!

Albert, you had it partially right, but then got all bent out of shape when someone corrected you a bit. Sorry, but no, humidity does not cause RI, nor does high humidity. You had it right though when you qualified it by saying that high humidity when coupled with the lack of ventilation in an enclosed space can contribute to it, but again that is not because of the humidity. The poor ventilation and enclosure space is the cause of the problem you speak of, not the humidity itself. That was the point MDT was trying to make clear I think. You can have a very high humidity enclosure with out worry about RI, as long as you have it set up properly. However, you put that same humidity in a small empty enclosed space with limited ventilation and you get problems. Not just the possibility of viruses and bacteria that MDT mentioned, but also with fungal blooms where the spoors are then constantly being breathed in.

Part of the problem here too is that RI is a broad catch-all that people use to refer to just about any lung problem. While bacterial would be similar to what we think of simply as a cold, the viral kind would be closer to pneumonia, and the lack of ventilation kind more like dealing with air pollution. All different causes and illnesses, but because its reptiles they seem to all get put together.

[Jrich]

Update. After a few rounds of baytril injections Cersei's bubbling seemed to be at minimum and she has been eating well enough. I have since moved her to a 20 gallon tank with a screen top and aspen bedding. Warm side has heating pad set to 92 on a thermostat and there's a 50watt heat bulb set above her warm hide all monitored by another thermometer, cool side 78-82 depending on the time of day. Humidity stays around 70%. She spends most of her time on the warm side. However just a few days ago she was bubbling away again. Here's some pictures I snapped of her in her travel cage. She pressed her snout right up against the side, which allowed a little of an inside view. Sometimes when she flicks her tongue out there looks like there's something on it and she can't seem to flick out it out fully. Anyone have any ideas, thoughts, suggestions?

[Jrich]

Here is another picture. She keeps her mouth like this at times

[Aaron_S]

A vet visit? What did they say?

[MDT]

Sounds like either your snake has a bacterium that may be resistant or partially resistant to quinolones (of which Baytril is), or your snake has a virus. Back to Aaron's question...vet visit? Culture results?

[Albert Clark]

Wow, sorry to hear that your bp is still in the throws of this resistant RI. The tongue not flicking normally is bc the RI is still active and secretions can cause the tines (fork)to stick together. The secretions are usually mucoid and thick. Depending on the culture results or the tracheal swab/ wash she may have to remain on a longer course of treatment. The other possibility is a new prescription for a different medication. Just make sure to keep your husbandry double and triple checked and make sure you keep the enclosure spotless. Good luck.

[Jrich]

Originally Posted by Aaron_S

A vet visit? What did they say?

When I took her to the vet last month they said she had an RI but couldn't pinpoint a specific type. They gave her 5 injections of baytril over the course of a week and a half. I had another vet in the same clinic take a look at her as well to see if they noticed something the first one didn't. I asked for a swab but they told me that the baytril should clear it up...well....ok. There are quite a few vet clinics in my area but this is the only one that will see reptiles. I'm sure they have good intentions but I'm not sure about the level of expertise with snakes and I don't want to ask to seem rude. Since they're closed tomorrow I will call Tuesday and be more adamant about a culture being done since the injections only temporarily subsided the bubbling. Other than her bubbling she will still eat and seems to be inquisitive.

[Albert Clark]

Jrich, the normal duration for a Baytril course of treatment is 10 days for uncomplicated issues. If she only had 5 injections then she is only half way through the course of treatment. You did say she has had the bubbling temporarily subside and that she is feeding. Of course it could be a resistant RI but let the Baytril run its course. Remember, reptiles heal slowly and their metabolic rates are even slower. In the wild they at least move more and travel distances to find mates which they cant do as captives. So, their metabolic rates are even slower as captives. Baytril for complicated or resistant RI can be for 14 days or longer. But we have to see what the results of further tests reveal. I have a female albino bp that was very ill at one time about 3 years ago so I can relate very openly to your situation.

[Aaron_S]

Insist on a culture. No ifs, ands or buts. Why keep giving something that may not be working and you end with a dead snake?

[MDT]

Originally Posted by Albert Clark

Baytril for complicated or resistant RI can be for 14 days or longer. But we have to see what the results of further tests reveal. I have a female albino bp that was very ill at one time about 3 years ago so I can relate very openly to your situation.

if a vet gives an antibiotic for a partially resistant or "complicated" RI, they should go back to school and take pharmacology over again.

you give the medicine that WORKS on the identified bacterium. if "complicated" you give a polydrug regimen. If nothing grew out YOU DON'T NEED ANTIBIOTICS PERIOD.

[Jrich]

Sorry it took so long for an update but after waiting forever for the results of a culture that was taken from Cersei's lung I received results today. It's Providencia rettgeri. I will admit I know very little about this type of gram negative bacteria but I have a feeling it's not going to go well from here. I did not have her for very long after she became ill so I have no idea if she became ill on my watch or if she was already ill to begin with but that doesn't matter now.
The veterinarian who went over the results with me told me they had ordered the corresponding antibiotic for this bacteria but I have already forgotten the name but it's yet another series of injections. Cersei has refused to eat for awhile now and she has grown thin and it's pretty disheartening. She still might be sore from the culture. She still comes out to wander around her cage late at night like she's looking for food though. If anyone has any input about this type of bacterial infection or advice it would be much appreciated!