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I understand that and don't get me wrong a few of my snakes are in more visible setup, e.g. Medusa, my 8' 2yr. old Burm is in a AP T25 terrestrial cage, Black Betty my 9' Dums is in a 6' Neodesha and Pindari my Scrub is in a Neodesha Arboreal. These suit the individual snakes' needs well but because of space issues, racks are much more efficient when it comes to having everybody in my room.
I wasn't directing it at you. We were actually posting at the same time I think.
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I used to be a nice guy but that don't get you anywhere. So now I'm just a piece of ****, idiot,
who's too stupid to care.
so...(bear with me here) your goal as a reptile keeper is efficiency? Is that why you started keeping herps?
If space is a concern for some, what is the added value of adding more animals to the collection vs. bigger/better caging options for less animals?
Again, not trying to give anyone crap for this style of caging, just trying to understand the mentality.
Thanks guys!
B
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"It is impossible to recreate nature in whole by recreating it in part" -H. Hediger
I dont think you can put say just one or the other its more preference i think. some people enjoy looking at the few snakes through a glass and others like having a big selection of animals that they can look at when they want. thats not including space, money, humidity/temp.
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1.0 Hypo Het Albino Red Tail Boa, 0.1 Lipstick Red Tail Boa, 1.0 Pit Bull
I am more of a display fan myself. I chose spirited active snakes on purpose, I want to see animal behavior, and fancy paint jobs do not thrill me. When I see frog faced, bug eyed snow specimens being sold as "fancy" for high price tags, I get nausiated.
f5, f6, f12 belongs on the side of a jet, not a deli cup.
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"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
What you don't know is I went through a divorce last year, not my choice. Also, I pull my snakes out and handle them. I don't just look at them. I enjoy my snakes and I will not give them up because of circumstances beyond my control. That said, I take care of them, making sure their tubs/cages are clean, fresh water and I feed them regularly, in addition to giving each one of them personal attention. Racks aren't for everybody, but they have been and continue to be useful in housing most of my snakes. Besides, a snake in a secluded tub with only the front being visible gives a measure of security for the snake, a glass tank never will. You asked why.. These are my reasons I'm giving you in answer to your question.
What you don't know is I went through a divorce last year, not my choice. Also, I pull my snakes out and handle them. I don't just look at them. I enjoy my snakes and I will not give them up because of circumstances beyond my control. That said, I take care of them, making sure their tubs/cages are clean, fresh water and I feed them regularly, in addition to giving each one of them personal attention. Racks aren't for everybody, but they have been and continue to be useful in housing most of my snakes. Besides, a snake in a secluded tub with only the front being visible gives a measure of security for the snake, a glass tank never will. You asked why.. These are my reasons I'm giving you in answer to your question.
Sorry to hear that man, been there myself, divorced, looking for a place with nearly 20 adult varanids and a full grown pair of retics. Divorce is a life changer for sure. I always say I'm glad I went through mine as it caused me to refocus my life and priorities, course I said the same thing about fighting cancer, so maybe I'm nuts.
I will disagree about the security issue though, with a display cage you (should) have deep substrate that allows for natural, secure hides. I follow the mindset that an animals enclosure is NOT it's home it is it's environment and it must have a home (or homes) within it's environment.
Thanks for the response, good luck with your animals.
B
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"It is impossible to recreate nature in whole by recreating it in part" -H. Hediger
That video's funny. Thank you posting that. It put a smile on my face.
My situation as the result of last year is one of many examples of when I see things the way they are, I decide what I want to do in response to it. I'm ok and it's all good. My snakes are my main focus now, outside my job, and that's the way I want it. I'm happier that way.
I've had my rack for a few months now, and its starting to drive me completely nuts but I haven't found any appropriately sized enclosures I like to replace it with. Every time I open a tub and see the snakes cruising around or sitting out in the open, I get all bummed that I had to open the tub to see them. IMO, if I had the choice between 10 of my favorite species in lame enclosures, or 2 in awesome setups, I would take the 2 every time. Even if you COULD see into your tubs, the lack of 'environment' just completely eliminates any possibility to observe interesting behavior. For people supplying the rest of us with snakes and have breeding facilities, I completely understand and get the reasons. But 1 rack in my living room for a few snakes, I feel like an idiot honestly :P
If you only have a few snakes, display enclosures work better. I agree with that and I do have a few snakes who are in display enclosures. As stated earlier, I handle almost all my snakes. The only one I don't is my Scrub because of his temperament. If I had gotten him as a baby, I would've had a chance with him but it is what it is. That said, I do get to interact with these snakes as I handle them so it's not like they are totally cut off because I can't see them as well as a display enclosure. Pindari, my Scrub is in one of these cages and that's a good thing because of the lack of handling with him but Medusa, my 2 yr old Burm and Black Betty are also in display enclosures and I handle them anyway because I enjoy them. The only downside to racks that I can see from the point of view of a hobbyist is if the snakes not handled at all. Then there is no interaction or observing the snake at all. In your case, smy_749, don't feel weird or bad for having 1 rack in your living room to house a few snakes. Instead, look to see what's available in enclosures that you would like to have for them and get them. In my case, I have 5 racks of various styles and sizes, and 4 display enclosures to house 37 snakes in my bedroom. I do what I need to do to get it done.
I backed off and intentionally limit the number of snakes I keep. I want display enclosures.
However I do not breed (on any scale) and prefer the more active diurnal species, so tubs would just not work.
Imagine opening a tub with a 4 foot black racer in it! the snake would be either hanging off your face by it's mouth, on the other side of the room or up on the ceiling fan laughing at you.
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"Where would we be without the agitators of the world attaching the electrodes
of knowledge to the nipples of ignorance?"
I understand the necessity of tubs, I even use a 5 bin 51 qt rack for my ball pythons. I do however have two problems/concerns with rack systems.
One: many people who implement rack systems provide tubs that are way too small for their snake to do much of anything other than live a life of bed-rest. Kudos to Chuck (captain america) for providing his snakes with tubs the equivalence in size to a suitable viewing enclosure. I feel that he is more the exception than the norm when it comes to people who implement racks. Many purchase racks that are suitable for the animals they currently have and not the animals they will soon grow into. This problem is made bigger because most tend to buy a few baby snakes at a time in spurts of purchasing.
My second problem is that I believe that the existence of rack systems lowers the overall quality of our hobby. Granted, I do understand that there are many breeders who simply cannot conduct their business without owning rack systems, however, the implementation of rack systems allows any person to really cram 10 snakes into their living room under their TV and start cranking out babies. At the end of the day, the point of keeping reptiles is to enjoy and respect them, and it is our responsibility as "omnipotent" keepers to provide for them. I feel that the value of the lives we assume responsibility for is cheapened overall by this mindset of reptiles being a commodity that can be bought sold and traded for, and we easily loose track of the concept of the beating hearts and the live animals living in our house.
I am not singling any one person out, like I said, I myself have a 5 51qt rack I use for ball pythons. I do not feel great about it, and am in the process of converting them into a stack of wooden display cages. Regardless, they are useful, I just believe they also can serve as a venue to aide a person who has barely learned to care for one snake, to house a dozen, and create dozens more.
Nice, man. So is there any difference between the 421D, and the Christmas Box... performance wise? Because the Christmas boxes are $92, and the 421D's are $250 each brand new.
Very interesting discussion, thanks.
So obviously price is a major factor for many using rack systems. Is this because the goal of keepers here is more to have lots of animals vs. observing behavior or sharing space/connecting with the animals? What is the breaking point for needing a rack for you guys? i.e how many animals did you get to to start thinking "I need a rack"
Marvel Freak- do you notice behavioral differences in the animals you keep in set ups that require top opening? Meaning when you pop open an enclosure and are looming over the animals does it affect behavior in your opinion? Vs say a front opening "display" style set up.
Thanks for the discussion guys!
Best.
For me it was i wanted something bigger for my snakes but i wanted to save money and still be able to display them. That why i have mine set up side ways. When i first started using the big totes i had them stacked on each other. That became a real pain fast because if the snake in the bottom cage crapped i have to remove the others to get to it's cage. So then i got the idea to get the metal racks that they are on now. This way i can just pull the cage right out without having to move the rest. Plus by moving two of my snake out of the boaphile cages into totes i was able to combined the boaphile and make two 8 foot cages for my Yellow Anaconda and 8.5 Jungle Carpet. Now i do know that some day i will have to get bigger cages for my Argentine Boas and Dumerli Boa. At which time they will go into a front open cage.
As for behavior. My Borneo got very aggressive when he was in a front open cage i moved him back to a tote and he became mellow again. My Blood tend to prefer the totes but my Blacks are just to big for them and do ok in the cages. They were a lot more active though in the totes.
My Carpets love the totes because i have perches at the top of the cages. With the way the Christmas tree totes are build if they are on the perch you have to bend down to see them. As the lid help hide them which they seem to love. Basically the lid and perch work as a hide. In fact they all quit using their hide on the floor. The only time they get on the floor is to sit on the heat after eating.
As for the opening the cage from the top compares to the front opening effecting their behavior it all depends on the snake. My Yellow Andie and Blacks Bloods seem to not hiss and be mellower when i go to get them out of their front opening cages. They like the cages because they can watch your every move. My Carpets will come strolling right out of the cage and up my arm no matter which kind they are in. Three of them have been kept in both kinds of cages and their behavior was the same. I think you just have to figure out what works best for each snake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by franks
I understand the necessity of tubs, I even use a 5 bin 51 qt rack for my ball pythons. I do however have two problems/concerns with rack systems.
One: many people who implement rack systems provide tubs that are way too small for their snake to do much of anything other than live a life of bed-rest. Kudos to Chuck (captain america) for providing his snakes with tubs the equivalence in size to a suitable viewing enclosure. I feel that he is more the exception than the norm when it comes to people who implement racks. Many purchase racks that are suitable for the animals they currently have and not the animals they will soon grow into. This problem is made bigger because most tend to buy a few baby snakes at a time in spurts of purchasing.
Thank you Frank. One of the thing i love about how i have my totes set up is i can still view them. I am lucky in that i have such a big snake room that i was able to set it up like i have it or i would probably have less snakes. I love to watch my snakes. Also my snake room has something i am sure no other has a toilet. For what ever reason they put a toilet right in the middle of the room on one side. So when i am on the john i can sit and watch my snakes. I fine it much more relaxing than reading a paper.lol
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