Lets try this again...here are my pets

[smy_749]

If you can really clean the repti-carpet so thoroughly as to not harbor anything harmful then fine, you can get around that (throwing you a bone here)...

The real issue is the screen top / heat lamp combo. Living in a humid environment is not a way around the issues at hand, because you are creating a separate microenvironment inside the tank.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

Don't have much time but I'll try and address some of these issues.
Most importantly for the people who are unfamiliar with modern husbandry,.
A brief synopsis of the basic tenets of modern reptile husbandry.
Open topped or screen topped enclosures are a huge no no, they are never o.k for reptiles, ever (amphibians, o.k but not reps). Enclosures must be solid topped with the lights inside, any ventilation (if offered) should be at substrate level. Bulb guards can be used for snakes but never for lizards.
Here's why:
Reptiles are designed to retain both heat and humidity, they are not designed to be constantly replenished with fresh water, they are all about moisture retention. Screen tops allow all of the humidity to attach to heat and rise out of the enclosure, dehydrating the animal. A fish tank with a screen top will not hold any humidity, check out a meat dehydrator, seriously, google it up. Imagine what your organs would look like and feel like if you lived your whole life in a meat dehydrator! Not fun. The fact that many of these reps don't perish quickly is not a testament to these types of set ups being acceptable, it's a testament to how amazing their ability is to weather harsh conditions and hide stress and disease.
Next up, thermal gradient.
The idea behind modern husbandry is to give the animals MORE than they need not less and allow them to be animals. meaning, you should be offering a few degrees higher temps than needed and a few degrees lower than needed, both MUST be available AND the animal must not be forced to choose between optimum temp and security( more on this later)
So for these types of animals say 100-110F hot side, 60-65F cool side.
Ambient temps are worthless to reptiles, surface temps are all that matters.
Then we get to substrate.
Earth, dirt, sandy loam, leaflitter, these are acceptable substrates. When you go out and look for reptiles in the wild do you see them everytime? No. Why? because they live inside of something (usually the ground) they do this for security and to retain moisture.
Substrate should be able to hold a burrow, should allow the animal to get inside it, they need to be able to use their hides to help retain moisture.
Now, one other very important aspect of modern husbandry is that the enclosure you keep your reptile in is not it's home...it's it's environment or habitat and it MUST have multiple homes within its habitat (that whole choosing thing).
So.... in a nutshell, no open tops, big thermal gradient, deep substrate, and a home....seems pretty simple to me and guess what? It works.
Now for Amadeus, if trying to improve the lives of reptiles in captivity is "elitist", I can live with that label. I'm not a fan of keeping it stupid, I'd like to elevate the conversation.
As far as a back handed slap at the forum (forget who said it), I'm new here I didn't know the history, but if this was already gone over shouldn't you be happy that others are agreeing with you? Wouldn't this just be one more voice of reason chiming in? Why do you think a knee jerk reaction is productive or adds to the conversation?
I'm not trying to be a jerk or start fights, but this type of husbandry is why we have such a huge threat to our hobby, this is not O.K and needs to be pointed out.
Fish tanks are for fish. screen tops are a death sentence for reptiles. repticarpet is unacceptable.
Sorry I don't have time for more.
Thanks.
Ben

Thanks for the information, it's only been a while since I figured it was better to have a larger thermal gradient(higher temps, lower temps)

Would you mind showing us a few pictures of your set ups?

[smy_749]

Mikoh, he has a few pics of his olivaceous and dumerils setups on his welcome thread.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by smy_749

Mikoh, he has a few pics of his olivaceous and dumerils setups on his welcome thread.

I want to see pictures to compare for snakes, I've already seen those pictures.

[KORBIN5895]

A dumerils is a snake.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by KORBIN5895

A dumerils is a snake.

I think he's talking about the dumeril's monitor. Not boa.

[EL Ziggy]

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuos source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY but I strive to provide them the most comfortable environment I can with and endless supply of love, food, water, shelter and without the threat of predators. I don't think you can do much more for any animal. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm open to that but I see like most information-it is subjective-and you just have to take it in, process and filter it, and do what you think is best for you and yours. I get lots of helpful information from this forum once I get thru the static of egos and bickering. Gotta take the good with the bad, such is life. Be well all.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuos source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY but I strive to provide them the most comfortable environment I can with and endless supply of love, food, water, shelter and without the threat of predators. I don't think you can do much more for any animal. I know I have a lot to learn and I'm open to that but I see like most information-it is subjective-and you just have to take it in, process and filter it, and do what you think is best for you and yours. I get lots of helpful information from this forum once I get thru the static of egos and bickering. Gotta take the good with the bad, such is life. Be well all.

Why do you have the heat lamp on for such a short period of time a day?

[EL Ziggy]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Why do you have the heat lamp on for such a short period of time a day?

@Mikoh
I touched on that in another thread recently. I was asking about keeping that light on continuously because I was concerned about the basking spot being so hot. I don't like the thought of it staying on all day while I'm at work, so I usually just turn it on when I get home until I go to sleep, so its on for more like 5 hours (usually 7-12).

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

@Mikoh
I touched on that in another thread recently. I was asking about keeping that light on continuously because I was concerned about the basking spot being so hot. I don't like the thought of it staying on all day while I'm at work, so I usually just turn it on when I get home until I go to sleep, so its on for more like 5 hours (usually 7-12).

That's what the rest of the cage is for, to cool off. Your snakes should still be allowed the choice of a hotspot so it can thermoregulate. Caresheets reccomend a hotspot of around 90F for carpet pythons. I give both of my carpets hotspots close to 100F. As they move further away from the hotspot they can choose to bask at 98F, 93F, 88F...etc. While the heat is on, the coolest side of their enclosures measure 77-79F during the day.

Also you wouldn't have to worry if you were using a thermostat. Get a thermostat and control your temperatures instead of guessing and only providing a couple to several hours of heat a day.

[EL Ziggy]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

That's what the rest of the cage is for, to cool off. Your snakes should still be allowed the choice of a hotspot so it can thermoregulate. Caresheets reccomend a hotspot of around 90F for carpet pythons. I give both of my carpets hotspots close to 100F. As they move further away from the hotspot they can choose to bask at 98F, 93F, 88F...etc. While the heat is on, the coolest side of their enclosures measure 77-79F during the day.

Also you wouldn't have to worry if you were using a thermostat. Get a thermostat and control your temperatures instead of guessing and only providing a couple to several hours of heat a day.

I definitely need thermostats. l realize thats pretty important. A timer sounds like a good idea too. I'll have those things in a few weeks after I finish some car repairs and get the baby new school clothes, after celebrating his birthday this week : ). Im just pacing myself. I use digital thermoters and currently their hot sides average 85-90 without the lamps and 94-100 with the lamps. Both my kings tend to stay in their cool side hides consistently, but do go to the warm hides too, mostly when they've just eaten or when they're ready to shed. They will perch and bask sometimes but they're usually roaming or hiding.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

I definitely need thermometers, l realize thats pretty important. A timer sounds like a good idea too. I'll have those things in a few weeks after I finish some car repairs and get the baby new school clothes, after celebrating his birthday this week : ). Im just pacing myself. Currently their hot sides average 85-90 without the lamps and 94-100 with the lamps. Both my kings tend to stay in their cool side hides consistently, but do go to the warm hides too, mostly when they've just eaten or when they're ready to shed. They will perch and bask sometimes but they're usually roaming or hiding.

Why is it so hot without the lamps? Are you using an under tank heater as well?

[B_Aller]

Originally Posted by EL-Ziggy

Ok, so my kings shouldnt have an screen top because the 75 watt red florescent light that I use for 3-4 hours a day will dehydrate them to the tune of a slow cruel death? In spite of the fact they don't have a high humidity requirement and they have a continuous source of clean, fresh water to drink and soak in? I havent heard that before in any of the care guides I've read and I've done quite a bit of research. I must admit I find that difficult to believe. There is no way to create a totally natural habitual when you keep an animal in CAPTIVITY

well this is as good a place to start as any I guess,
Yes, to re-iterate, your kingsnake should not have a screen top, a 75 watt bulb in a 40 gal aquarium for 3-4 hours a day is way off. For that size enclosure you should never need more than a 25-45 watt bulb, this is a great example of what I was speaking of, giving the animal a chance to be an animal by providing everything it needs 24-7 and letting it choose. You are not getting a proper thermal gradient with that wattage of bulb and that size enclosure, that's why you force the animal to be on your schedule, not theirs. Why do you keep the bulb on for those hours? did the snake tell you those were the hours it would like to bask? Why not provide everything the animal needs all the time and let it show you what a kingsnake is.
You say your snake does not have a "high" humidity requirement, you are missing the point, where do these snakes live in nature? they live in the ground. Why? security and to RETAIN moisture. How humid is a burrow?
How does a constant low level dehydration effect their physiology?
High humidity is NOT what your after, you want to reduce the moisture loss not constantly replace it. Fresh water is not the point (yes they should always have access) you want to avoid the loss in the first place. It has nothing to do with tropical/desert etc. all reps are designed to limit moisture loss, you are working HARD against that when providing an open topped enclosure. Did you look into what a meat dehydrator looks like or how it functions? please do.

Where are you doing your research? in pet or hobby mags/websites?
This basic modern husbandry principle was laid out by "The father of Zoo biology" Heni Hediger,(in the 1960's!!) the most famous animal behaviorist since Pavlov, also called "the father of animals in captivity" but many, many others have carried on this work, this is not new or groundbreaking or any such thing, it's common sense and applied knowledge, please don't take it form me, PLEASE DON'T believe me...just look into it yourself.
As for your last line in this quote, check out my signature below and ask yourself, why a guy who designs and builds animal enclosures and zoo exhibits to put food on the table would be promoting this concept and what does it mean.
Thanks.

[EL Ziggy]

Originally Posted by mikoh4792

Why is it so hot without the lamps? Are you using an under tank heater as well?

Yes I use uth on both tanks.

[Mikoh4792]

Originally Posted by B_Aller

x

I was going to pm you but I figured incase others are wondering the same thing I should ask publicly.

What is your view on belly heat vs over head heating in enclosures, and back heating in rack systems?